Messengers of Music: The Stories Hiding Between the Notes

WEBVTT

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Jim Conrad: Welcome to episode 7.

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I am Jim Conrad, AKA Cono, and this is
Conovision, the spirit of storytelling.

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Today we revisit the subject of music
we visited earlier in an episode

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with friend and true audiophile, Bill
Reiter, and his story of how music

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was a pervasive story in his life.

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On today's episode, we'll hear from four
people who have been involved in music

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from the very beginning of their lives.

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Mark Holden, musician, songwriter,
performer, recording engineer.

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He'll talk about his
experiences with music.

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As well, three giants from the
local Vancouver radio and records

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industry from the 1970s and 80s.

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Dr. Don Shafer PhD, former program
director of CFOX in Vancouver, and Frank

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Gigliotti and Dave Chesney, who were
both record reps for CBS Records, one of

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the big monsters of the music industry.

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That's a bit later, but first, in an
overture, we talk about the neuroscience

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and the evolutionary roots of music
and how we are all born to sing.

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Music permeates almost every
human culture on Earth.

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The oldest discovered musical instruments
date back over 40,000 years to the

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Stone Age, but scientists believe
music itself could be much older than

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that, originating alongside language
in early hominid communication.

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So why did music become so
ubiquitously woven into the human

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experience over the millennium?

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Evolutionary psychologists argue
it conferred significant survival

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advantages to our ancestors.

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In prehistoric times, music
facilitated tighter social

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bonding between tribal members.

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Singing and drumming together released
neurochemicals like oxytocin, dopamine,

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and endorphins inducing positive emotions
that strengthened social cohesion.

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This allowed groups to cooperate better
in hunting, foraging, child rearing,

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and protection against outside threats.

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Musical rituals also demarcated
tribal identity and territory.

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Early music likely
added communication too.

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Rhythmic drumbeats and vocal calls
coordinated the actions and movements

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of groups during hunts or battle.

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Singing while working,
made labor less tedious.

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Mothers may have sung primitive
lullabies to proverbial infants as an

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early form of emotional communication.

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Music also enhanced defenses.

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Tribesmen beating drums and making
noise during the night signaled

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that they were alert and ready
to counter surprise enemy raids.

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Young night watchmen sang to indicate
that they were awake and vigilant.

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Sentries guarding territorial boundaries
used instruments to amplify warning

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calls across longer distances.

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In all these ways music enhanced
survival odds over human evolution.

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Groups that could make music together,
whether a simple drumbeat or a

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beautiful melody, were more cohesive,
communicative, cooperative, and defensive.

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Natural selection then embedded the
capacity for music into our biology.

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Supporting this, scientists have
discovered specific regions in the

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brain devoted to musical processing.

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Infants have an innate ability
to detect musical patterns and

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differentiate tonal pitches.

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Even patients with severe dementia
respond emotionally and physically to

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their favorite childhood songs when
nothing else provokes a reaction.

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And of course, music also
brings humans tremendous joy.

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The neurochemical changes it
induces brighten moods and

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forge social connections.

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Our brains seem wired at birth
to link music with positive

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emotions and togetherness.

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In this way too, nature predisposes
us to musical engagement so critical

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to our early human flourishing.

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So next time you find yourself humming
along to a catchy tune, bu-bu-buting

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another earworm, remember, you
are tapping into an extraordinary

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evolutionary heritage spanning millennia.

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Music is part of what
makes us uniquely human.

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Our Stone Age ancestors sang and
drummed because it enhanced survival.

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We engage with music now simply
because we are born to do so.

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This is the Conovsion podcast.

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I am Jim Conrad, AKA Cono.

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We've come to a segment I like
to call what I've learned.

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This is just gonna encompass all
kinds of storytelling about what

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people have learned over the
time they've spent on the planet.

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Today, my guest is Mark Holden.

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Mark, hi.

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Mark Holden: Hello, Jim.

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Good afternoon.

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Jim Conrad: Good afternoon.

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Gimme a, a quick bio of you and
where you're from, what you've been

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doing for most of your life, and then
we'll talk about what you've learned.

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Mark Holden: Okay.

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Well, I started my journey in this world
in Winnipeg, home of the world's largest

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mosquitoes and perhaps friendliest people.

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Amazing place.

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In fact, I don't know if I've ever met
anyone, I'm not gonna include myself into

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this, but, uh, that was from Winnipeg
that I didn't think was an amazing person.

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Jim Conrad: We love the Winnipegers.

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Mark Holden: It's incredible.

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Jim Conrad: And they love us.

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Mark Holden: Yeah.

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But, uh, I really have my, in
terms of my career path and the

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road that I've taken, I started in
music and started making records.

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It was my quest to be a great producer.

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And so I spent a number of years learning
how to make records as an engineer.

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I felt that if you're gonna produce
albums, you better know how to

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record them and talk that language
with wherever you're working with.

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Jim Conrad: So, in producing music, what
was the first thing that you learned?

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Mark Holden: One of the first things
I learned actually is how to think

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on your feet and react gracefully and
eloquently and elegantly under pressure.

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The studio that I was hired at, I
got a job in Calgary at the only

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professional recording studio there was.

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This is in the late seventies.

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And funnily enough, I had
visited that studio when I was

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a scout with my scout troop.

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It was like one of our outings.

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Jim Conrad: Did you get
your recording badge?

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Mark Holden: Well, they didn't
have such a thing, I think.

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I don't know.

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I think it was just a, it turns
out that our, the chief of my

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troop was the head of the Southern
Alberta Institute of Technology.

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A guy named Dick Galey.

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Great guy.

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And he, he was, had formerly
worked with Disney and everything.

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Anyway, he, he, he proclaimed to us one
day that, uh, next week we're gonna,

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for our scout meeting, we're gonna
go and visit this recording studio.

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So we walked into this place and into
the control room, and just the smell

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of the equipment and the, you know,
all of that, I just took one look

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around and said, wow, this is it.

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This is, this is for me.

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Jim Conrad: I wanna be a studio rat.

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Mark Holden: Yeah.

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And, and sure enough, three or
four years later, I got hired.

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It was an unpaid position.

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It's at the start, but it was the
studio was challenged to thrive is

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perhaps the best way I could put it.

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And so,

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Jim Conrad: Not a lot of bands
coming to Calgary to record.

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Mark Holden: No, no.

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Jim Conrad: Unless they were local.

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Mark Holden: Right.

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Jim Conrad: And even local guys
probably came here to Vancouver.

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Mark Holden: Yeah.

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Jim Conrad: Toronto.

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Mark Holden: Yeah.

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They wanted to.

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I mean, anybody that was there
felt that they needed to go

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somewhere else to record.

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And so I think it was a really tough road.

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I tipped my hat.

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The guy that built the place and ran
it was a guy named Peter Bentley,

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who I really credit with giving me
my start as he did in this case.

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But I,

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Jim Conrad: Props to Peter, thank you.

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Mark Holden: Yes, Peter, thank you.

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And, um, you never knew when you
plugged a mic in if it was gonna work.

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Jim Conrad: Okay.

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Mark Holden: So it was either the
cord, the mic, the input on the input

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module on the console, the patch bay.

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Any point where that signal had to kind
of cross, it could have gone wrong.

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So I learned, uh, very quickly
how in front of clients to kind

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of like fake my way through calmly
without showing any signs of,

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Jim Conrad: To, yeah, to calmly
troubleshoot any kind of problem.

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Mark Holden: Yeah.

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And it served me well.

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It really did.

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It served me well.

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It was a tough road, and you're sweating
bullets as it is, as a new engineer.

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You walk into a session and you know,
you've got this console and these tape

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machines and microphones and cables
and headphones and all that stuff.

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And so, you know, there's a, the
learning curve is very steep.

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So you're nervous at best
in those early days, but

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Jim Conrad: Now it, it helped
you that you were a musician.

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Mark Holden: Yeah.

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I think so, and certainly as an engineer,
it helped that I was a musician.

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I could talk the language, I could,
you know, when it came to assembling

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tracks and having to punch stuff in.

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And I think I had a, a very musical ear.

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And so I think that helped me.

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Jim Conrad: And then when you became the
band Boulevard, or formed that band, that

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was in Calgary with Calgary musicians, or?

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Mark Holden: It was, yeah.

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Yeah, it was Jim, uh, it was Calgary.

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Uh, we, um, I had actually
kind of started formulating

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the project prior to Boulevard.

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It was called Modern Minds.

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And I started writing the material and
working on stuff when I was working

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in Frankfurt, Germany as an engineer.

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Came back to Calgary to build
a studio called Thunder Road.

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And uh, it was during that time
that I started to create this

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project that would become Boulevard.

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And initially it wasn't
even gonna be a band.

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I just assembled a group of really good
musicians and we were just gonna create,

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Jim Conrad: Kind of a studio project.

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Mark Holden: Yeah.

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Jim Conrad: Maybe release a studio album.

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Mark Holden: Yeah.

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Jim Conrad: A lot of projects like that,
uh, were happening in that time period.

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Mark Holden: Absolutely.

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I mean, I think probably the one of
most note, at least for me anyway,

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was The Alan Parsons project that I,

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Jim Conrad: The Mark Holden project.

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Mark Holden: Precisely fashioned this
over the, after that, so that was

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kind of the early days of the band.

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And, and of course I ended up
moving back to Calgary, as I

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mentioned, and built the studio.

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And then, then at that point I've
got this tool that where at midnight

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and nobody's around, I can put
demos down and, you know, all that.

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Jim Conrad: What have you
learned then, now we've got to

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the band phase of your career.

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What did you learn and what have you
learned about the music business.

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Mark Holden: Wow.

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That's a, that's a,

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Jim Conrad: There's a lot
to unpack in just that one.

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Mark Holden: There's a lot to unpack.

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A lot to unpack there.

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Well, you know, it's interesting.

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I mean, it's, part of it is, is learning
and then now looking back, part of it

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is, is the ability to observe the way the
business was and the way that it's gone.

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I mean, fundamentally it's
music and it's business.

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And what I definitely learned
and was highly aware of

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early on is it is a business.

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And I think that, you know, a lot of
my colleagues and fellow musicians

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maybe had a harder time grasping that.

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And I think that I was
either blessed or cursed.

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I don't know which, Jim, with
having both sides of my brain

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kind of weirdly conflicting.

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You know, the one side, very creative,
and then the other side business.

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Jim Conrad: Well, that's the unique
thing about our brain is that we can

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actually hold two conflicting concepts.

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Not really conflicting, but
two opposite viewpoints.

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Mark Holden: Yeah.

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Jim Conrad: In balance at the same time.

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Mark Holden: Yeah.

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And then I,

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Jim Conrad: Without going nuts.

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Mark Holden: Yeah.

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Well, I think my ability to sort
of navigate through the business

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side of things has become one of
my skills, I suppose you'd put it.

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Again, there are times where I think,
you know, as a musician, if I had

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just not had any interest in the
business side of things and just

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played my instrument, I don't know
if it would've changed my path any.

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But to be honest with you, I think that
I've, you know, I've gotten a tremendous

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amount of joy out of being able to
navigate through those waters, and my

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understanding of the business and how
it works, uh, and my ability to kind of

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nurture relationships, I think has really
helped in what I've been able to create.

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Jim Conrad: In your success.

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Mark Holden: Yeah.

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Jim Conrad: So give me a story
about the music business.

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Something that completely
took you by surprise.

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Mark Holden: Okay.

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Well, I'll tell you a story.

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So yeah, we with, Boulevard had
been signed to MCA Universal in 88.

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Jim Conrad: That's a big signing.

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Mark Holden: It was a big signing.

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Yeah.

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And it was a big signing.

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Jim Conrad: MCA at the time
probably was one of the largest

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record companies in the world.

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Mark Holden: One of the big four.

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Absolutely.

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And I'll start this story in
Calgary, I had had written a

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song called Rainy Day in London,

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and I was sending tapes off.

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At that time, nobody in Canada
would pay any attention to me.

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So I would, I would, this particular
song, there was it and another song

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that I put on a cassette and I'd
sent them to the labels in Canada.

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Then I sent, I, I always sent what
I was doing to this friend of mine,

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Rudy Rockenshop, that is her name.

00:14:48.045 --> 00:14:49.605
Her and Bob Rock should get together.

00:14:50.620 --> 00:14:50.910
Jim Conrad: Yeah.

00:14:51.060 --> 00:14:51.350
Rudy?

00:14:51.915 --> 00:14:53.094
Mark Holden: Rudy Rockenshop.

00:14:53.395 --> 00:14:53.785
Jim Conrad: Wow.

00:14:53.815 --> 00:14:54.175
Mark Holden: Yeah.

00:14:54.205 --> 00:14:57.805
And, uh, she was a, a radio host,
backup singer, and I'd met her in

00:14:57.805 --> 00:14:59.935
Frankfurt and we worked a lot together.

00:14:59.935 --> 00:15:03.775
She'd come down from Hamburg and get
hired to, to sing on the, on various

00:15:03.775 --> 00:15:05.065
sessions that I was engineering.

00:15:05.185 --> 00:15:07.105
So she became a really good friend.

00:15:07.525 --> 00:15:09.115
So anyway, I sent her a copy of the tape.

00:15:09.280 --> 00:15:13.370
The band ended up getting signed in
Europe with CBS a different label.

00:15:13.390 --> 00:15:14.520
And this was the very beginning.

00:15:15.050 --> 00:15:16.480
And the song did really well.

00:15:16.480 --> 00:15:19.900
Like it charted, it was in the
top 40 in Billboard in Europe,

00:15:20.020 --> 00:15:22.630
and we were flown over to Germany.

00:15:22.630 --> 00:15:26.350
We appeared on this show called Ronnie's
Pop Show, and another one called Bananas,

00:15:26.350 --> 00:15:30.130
at, uh, that filmed in Cologne at, at DDR.

00:15:30.250 --> 00:15:34.569
So anyway, I came back to Canada and
now having a song that's chartered

00:15:34.569 --> 00:15:38.140
in Billboard in Europe, you know,
a few of the labels started to

00:15:38.140 --> 00:15:40.240
go, maybe there's something.

00:15:40.240 --> 00:15:40.250
Jim Conrad: Yeah.

00:15:40.250 --> 00:15:41.860
You're getting some attention, right?

00:15:41.860 --> 00:15:41.949
Mark Holden: Yep.

00:15:41.949 --> 00:15:45.880
So I was contacted by a guy named
John Alexander, who was the head of

00:15:45.880 --> 00:15:50.079
A and R for MCA at the time, and he
said, look, I've heard your stuff.

00:15:50.079 --> 00:15:53.110
I've always really have been a big
fan, and I've just become head of

00:15:53.110 --> 00:15:56.800
A and R. And we, we started this
dialogue that went on, john and I

00:15:56.800 --> 00:15:58.660
became very dear friends in the end.

00:15:59.170 --> 00:16:04.839
He ultimately, um, I was back and
forth, and then myself and, uh,

00:16:04.870 --> 00:16:08.110
Randy Gould, our guitar player,
wrote this song called Never Give Up.

00:16:08.814 --> 00:16:13.314
And I demoed it and I sent this off
to John and it, he kind of freaked out

00:16:13.375 --> 00:16:14.755
and said, okay, I'm coming to Calgary.

00:16:14.755 --> 00:16:15.145
Jim Conrad: Loved it.

00:16:15.295 --> 00:16:15.685
Mark Holden: Loved it.

00:16:22.855 --> 00:16:25.615
So he came to the airport,
we went into the studio.

00:16:25.615 --> 00:16:29.584
I played him the song, then I played it
at ear bleed levels, of course, right?

00:16:29.665 --> 00:16:30.224
And he said,

00:16:30.264 --> 00:16:31.045
Jim Conrad: The way it should be played.

00:16:31.045 --> 00:16:31.285
Mark Holden: Yeah.

00:16:31.375 --> 00:16:32.515
And from there we left.

00:16:32.515 --> 00:16:33.685
I was driving him downtown.

00:16:33.685 --> 00:16:36.255
Now it was January and it was minus 30.

00:16:36.795 --> 00:16:40.375
And I had a 1969 Volkswagen Beetle,

00:16:43.194 --> 00:16:46.255
which gas heater just
seemed to fail at all.

00:16:46.255 --> 00:16:48.355
The most inopportune times.

00:16:48.405 --> 00:16:50.204
And this was one of those times.

00:16:50.624 --> 00:16:53.845
So here we are driving from out by
the airport in Calgary downtown.

00:16:54.235 --> 00:16:57.235
It is minus 30 and it
is freezing in the car.

00:16:57.714 --> 00:16:59.275
And John says to me, Mark.

00:16:59.700 --> 00:17:02.820
I love the band and I'm gonna sign the
band, but can you turn the heat on?

00:17:06.060 --> 00:17:11.640
Jim Conrad: It's not a deal breaker, Mark,
but could you turn the fucking heater on?

00:17:12.750 --> 00:17:14.730
Mark Holden: So I looked
at him and I said, John, I

00:17:14.730 --> 00:17:16.290
just, I was like, oh my gosh.

00:17:16.650 --> 00:17:17.550
I said, John.

00:17:18.290 --> 00:17:19.030
It's broken.

00:17:19.310 --> 00:17:21.300
But I hope you'll still sign the band.

00:17:23.880 --> 00:17:25.830
And uh, and he said, absolutely.

00:17:26.190 --> 00:17:28.140
We would joke about
that for years to come.

00:17:28.440 --> 00:17:32.220
And one thing led to another that
we, we really required management.

00:17:32.220 --> 00:17:35.910
The label said, look, John said, in
fact, we can sign you to MCA Canada

00:17:35.910 --> 00:17:40.410
right now, but we think it's better if
you hold out and say no to the Canadian

00:17:40.410 --> 00:17:42.720
offer and we'll get you signed out of LA.

00:17:43.170 --> 00:17:46.410
Which was extremely nerve uh, nerve
wracking because, you know, I'm sort of

00:17:46.410 --> 00:17:48.900
turning down a, a record deal in Canada.

00:17:48.930 --> 00:17:49.350
Jim Conrad: Yeah.

00:17:49.380 --> 00:17:52.450
It's tough to, to turn away guarantee..

00:17:52.530 --> 00:17:53.460
Mark Holden: Yeah, absolutely.

00:17:53.790 --> 00:17:56.010
Jim Conrad: In the
promise of the brass ring.

00:17:56.130 --> 00:17:56.400
Mark Holden: Yeah.

00:17:56.640 --> 00:17:57.120
Jim Conrad: But you did.

00:17:57.390 --> 00:17:57.840
Mark Holden: I did.

00:17:58.080 --> 00:17:59.340
Jim Conrad: And then what happened?

00:17:59.340 --> 00:18:02.670
Mark Holden: And then he said,
look, LA, as we refer to the

00:18:02.670 --> 00:18:05.610
LA office, love the band.

00:18:05.610 --> 00:18:08.400
But they really feel you gotta have
management before they'll sign.

00:18:08.580 --> 00:18:12.090
And uh, so I said, okay, so, and
this story, I'm not sure if it's so

00:18:12.120 --> 00:18:15.705
much about a lesson, Jim, as it is
a, well, it kinda learned, I suppose.

00:18:15.705 --> 00:18:19.875
Jim Conrad: I think all stories
have a lesson inside them.

00:18:20.055 --> 00:18:24.045
I think all stories have a
kernel of truth that people

00:18:24.045 --> 00:18:26.715
identify with and go, oh, okay.

00:18:27.135 --> 00:18:30.405
If that ever happens to me,
I'll know maybe what to do.

00:18:30.435 --> 00:18:30.784
Mark Holden: Right?

00:18:31.165 --> 00:18:31.495
Yeah.

00:18:32.054 --> 00:18:36.825
So basically I contacted and I said,
look, here's the situation, John,

00:18:36.825 --> 00:18:41.865
and the, you know, MCA Universal LA
will sign the band if you'll manage.

00:18:42.555 --> 00:18:44.865
And he said, well, I'll
manage if they sign.

00:18:45.405 --> 00:18:47.175
So it was literally, you know, we had to,

00:18:47.385 --> 00:18:48.105
Jim Conrad: An impasse.

00:18:48.135 --> 00:18:48.375
Mark Holden: Yes.

00:18:48.375 --> 00:18:48.525
Yeah.

00:18:48.525 --> 00:18:52.535
So I got, I got John Alexander on the
phone, head of A and R, and, and I was in

00:18:52.985 --> 00:18:54.705
office sitting across the desk from him.

00:18:54.705 --> 00:18:57.495
I'll never forget, he had this
giant eight foot by eight foot

00:18:57.795 --> 00:19:01.245
poster of a boxer of these beads
of sweat dripping down its face.

00:19:01.245 --> 00:19:03.514
And it's this like bigger
than life painting.

00:19:03.635 --> 00:19:03.695
Jim Conrad: Wow.

00:19:03.695 --> 00:19:04.385
And it's not him.

00:19:04.594 --> 00:19:05.074
Mark Holden: It's not him.

00:19:05.675 --> 00:19:06.725
It's, I don't know who it is.

00:19:07.264 --> 00:19:11.165
So, you know, we got John on the phone,
and so you'll manage and said yes.

00:19:11.165 --> 00:19:12.665
And John said, okay,
well then we got a deal.

00:19:12.665 --> 00:19:14.495
So then we ended up signing the deal.

00:19:14.824 --> 00:19:16.415
The first album was made right here,

00:19:16.415 --> 00:19:17.764
Jim Conrad: In Little Mountain Sound.

00:19:17.764 --> 00:19:19.145
Mark Holden: Funnily enough,
right where we're sitting.

00:19:19.264 --> 00:19:22.205
And, um, the album came
out and did really well.

00:19:22.205 --> 00:19:24.935
It was released in the States, obviously
there was a huge amount of push and

00:19:24.935 --> 00:19:26.435
they had big plans for the band.

00:19:27.155 --> 00:19:31.865
Um, I remember watching a, an
episode of a show called Matlock.

00:19:31.955 --> 00:19:35.584
And, uh, in this one episode they
were in a, in a radio station and

00:19:35.584 --> 00:19:38.584
on the, on the wall of the radio
station was a Boulevard poster.

00:19:38.885 --> 00:19:39.334
Jim Conrad: Cool.

00:19:39.395 --> 00:19:42.985
Mark Holden: So it, and it, uh, really
showed us that the machine, quote,

00:19:43.075 --> 00:19:45.324
air quotes here, was ramping up.

00:19:45.415 --> 00:19:48.415
In Canada, we had tremendous success.

00:19:48.445 --> 00:19:50.995
Uh, you know, the head of national
promotion was a guy that is a

00:19:50.995 --> 00:19:54.235
mutual friend of ours, Peter
Demer, who absolutely killed it.

00:19:54.475 --> 00:19:58.584
He took Never Give Up to the top
10 for a number of weeks in Canada.

00:19:58.705 --> 00:20:03.594
Anyway, didn't think that the US was
pulling its weight given what we had,

00:20:03.625 --> 00:20:05.544
the kind of success we'd had in Canada.

00:20:05.695 --> 00:20:09.685
So one day the phone rings at my house
and it's Cliff Jones, who was kind

00:20:09.685 --> 00:20:11.334
of handling our day-to-day affairs.

00:20:11.395 --> 00:20:14.725
And he said, so, uh, you're not
gonna fucking believe this, but,

00:20:14.725 --> 00:20:16.645
uh, just called Irving Azoff.

00:20:17.125 --> 00:20:19.225
Jim Conrad: Irving Azoff was the head of?

00:20:19.554 --> 00:20:22.120
Mark Holden: He was, the
chairman of MCA Universal music.

00:20:22.120 --> 00:20:22.225
Jim Conrad: MCA Universal.

00:20:22.945 --> 00:20:23.215
Mark Holden: Yeah.

00:20:23.304 --> 00:20:24.625
Jim Conrad: So the big cheese.

00:20:24.655 --> 00:20:25.375
Mark Holden: The big cheese.

00:20:25.375 --> 00:20:29.125
They gave, you know, Irving also
managed the Eagles and many others.

00:20:29.455 --> 00:20:30.594
He is a powerhouse.

00:20:30.774 --> 00:20:31.975
Anyway, called Irving.

00:20:32.605 --> 00:20:36.264
And he said, uh, with reference to
Never Give Up, he said, well, you

00:20:36.264 --> 00:20:37.855
kind of fucked that one up down there.

00:20:38.004 --> 00:20:39.644
What have you got planned
for the next single.

00:20:41.344 --> 00:20:42.384
Jim Conrad: And Irving?

00:20:43.414 --> 00:20:47.100
Mark Holden: The line went silent,
and I would find out later that Irving

00:20:47.100 --> 00:20:51.760
hung the phone up and said to his
colleague, a guy named Richard Palmese,

00:20:51.780 --> 00:20:55.200
who was the Vice President of Music,
nobody fucking talks to me like that.

00:20:55.890 --> 00:20:58.980
And it was over, and that was it.

00:20:59.220 --> 00:20:59.790
That was it.

00:20:59.880 --> 00:21:02.430
The, the US dropped us like a hot potato.

00:21:02.550 --> 00:21:06.990
We released a second record, but it,
you know, the, the machine, quote

00:21:06.990 --> 00:21:08.715
unquote, had come to a grinding halt.

00:21:08.735 --> 00:21:09.240
Jim Conrad: Ground to a halt.

00:21:09.270 --> 00:21:09.600
Mark Holden: Yes.

00:21:13.280 --> 00:21:13.500
Jim Conrad: Okay.

00:21:13.500 --> 00:21:18.870
From that, onward to what was your
next venture and your next challenge?

00:21:19.110 --> 00:21:23.190
Mark Holden: I had to really take a
hard look at, you know, how things were

00:21:23.190 --> 00:21:25.380
evolving with the band at the time.

00:21:25.790 --> 00:21:26.520
Jim Conrad: You had to pivot.

00:21:26.730 --> 00:21:27.180
Mark Holden: Yeah.

00:21:27.240 --> 00:21:29.100
And we'd had some challenges internally.

00:21:29.100 --> 00:21:29.490
Jim Conrad: How old were you?

00:21:29.700 --> 00:21:32.575
Mark Holden: At this time I was, um, 30.

00:21:32.665 --> 00:21:32.995
Jim Conrad: Okay.

00:21:33.785 --> 00:21:34.225
Alright.

00:21:34.225 --> 00:21:37.950
That's, that's a pretty tender, you,
you've had a, a track for a number

00:21:37.950 --> 00:21:43.740
of years and then at 30 a dream with
the band and everything kinda stopped

00:21:43.740 --> 00:21:46.050
and halted and came crashing down.

00:21:46.080 --> 00:21:46.350
Mark Holden: Yeah.

00:21:46.470 --> 00:21:48.390
Jim Conrad: Some people
don't survive that.

00:21:48.510 --> 00:21:49.470
Can't handle that.

00:21:50.010 --> 00:21:50.850
How did you handle it?

00:21:51.360 --> 00:21:54.300
Mark Holden: Well, I had to, I, I had
to take a really honest look at where

00:21:54.300 --> 00:21:59.640
the band was at the time, and it was,
I'll call it, I think experiencing

00:21:59.640 --> 00:22:01.149
a bit of a Spinal Tap moment.

00:22:01.200 --> 00:22:03.110
It kind

00:22:05.370 --> 00:22:08.360
of exploded.

00:22:08.415 --> 00:22:11.455
I basically said, look, I've had
enough, I've been driving this

00:22:11.475 --> 00:22:12.495
thing from the very beginning.

00:22:12.495 --> 00:22:15.885
I started the band, you know, created
this group of guys and it had been a

00:22:15.885 --> 00:22:17.895
great run, but I, I was sort of done.

00:22:18.135 --> 00:22:18.375
Jim Conrad: Yeah.

00:22:18.585 --> 00:22:21.015
Mark Holden: You know what I learned
there and I knew it and I actually

00:22:21.015 --> 00:22:25.245
said to, uh, you know, a couple of
guys in the band, you know, we have to

00:22:25.245 --> 00:22:27.555
remember what it is that got us here.

00:22:27.885 --> 00:22:28.845
It was our music.

00:22:28.845 --> 00:22:30.405
It was a combination, it was our sound.

00:22:30.615 --> 00:22:33.645
Jim Conrad: It was the alchemy
that produced your music.

00:22:33.645 --> 00:22:33.975
Mark Holden: Yes.

00:22:34.005 --> 00:22:35.025
Yeah, absolutely.

00:22:35.175 --> 00:22:39.765
And you know, I would say that to any, any
band out there that is struggling right

00:22:39.765 --> 00:22:45.015
now, I would say sometimes you kind of
have to put some of your little personal

00:22:45.015 --> 00:22:50.405
things aside and it's really about the
greater good of the band and the project.

00:22:50.405 --> 00:22:53.235
Because you might win your point.

00:22:53.655 --> 00:22:57.855
However, in the end, if you cratered
the vessel, the vehicle that was

00:22:57.855 --> 00:23:01.095
carrying you, in this case it was
our band, in the process, then

00:23:01.095 --> 00:23:02.445
what good was it being right?

00:23:03.405 --> 00:23:04.065
Jim Conrad: Exactly.

00:23:04.275 --> 00:23:04.665
I like it.

00:23:05.160 --> 00:23:07.920
From there until now,
what have you been doing?

00:23:08.190 --> 00:23:11.880
Mark Holden: Well, I was introduced
to a guy who had invented a

00:23:11.880 --> 00:23:14.070
technology around 1990, 91.

00:23:14.220 --> 00:23:18.060
Uh, his name was Tom Taylor,
and Tom was a very bright,

00:23:18.180 --> 00:23:20.430
extremely forward-thinking guy.

00:23:20.430 --> 00:23:24.480
And Tom had invented the world's
first digital sound card.

00:23:24.960 --> 00:23:25.380
Jim Conrad: Okay.

00:23:25.380 --> 00:23:25.770
Mark Holden: Yeah.

00:23:26.340 --> 00:23:30.780
And a friend of mine who as it turns
out, had built Thunder Road, my

00:23:30.780 --> 00:23:35.520
studio, he and his partner Carl, had
been kind of the consulting company

00:23:35.520 --> 00:23:39.390
that, uh, we used when we built the
studio in Calgary, Steve Faus, and

00:23:39.390 --> 00:23:40.980
Steve and I became very good friends.

00:23:41.400 --> 00:23:45.600
And, uh, Steve called me up out
of the blue and he said, I've just

00:23:45.600 --> 00:23:49.350
invested in this company, more
specific in this guy and his invention.

00:23:49.830 --> 00:23:52.649
But they need somebody like
you that understands sound

00:23:52.649 --> 00:23:53.699
and understand, you know?

00:23:54.120 --> 00:23:56.730
And I, in the meantime, I had
also been doing sound for film,

00:23:56.790 --> 00:23:58.530
part-time, to support my family.

00:23:58.530 --> 00:24:02.050
'Cause I had my wife and two
young children at this time.

00:24:02.210 --> 00:24:06.585
So, he said, look, would you meet with
Tom and see if, if you can help him?

00:24:06.945 --> 00:24:07.785
And I said, sure.

00:24:07.785 --> 00:24:10.695
So I met with Tom and, and he
played me this demo and I said,

00:24:10.695 --> 00:24:12.525
oh, this is, this is pretty crazy.

00:24:12.585 --> 00:24:16.335
'Cause at that point, Jim, sound
for computers was, uh, synthesized.

00:24:16.335 --> 00:24:17.205
Jim Conrad: Very simple.

00:24:21.075 --> 00:24:22.590
Mark Holden: Yeah, it
was very rudimentary.

00:24:22.590 --> 00:24:24.855
In fact, it was, it was synthesized.

00:24:25.105 --> 00:24:28.515
So the video games that were in
existence at that time, like, uh,

00:24:28.695 --> 00:24:33.045
Pac-Man or like Space Invaders, it
was just pops and clicks and you know.

00:24:33.165 --> 00:24:35.955
Jim Conrad: So this sound card
enabled computers to have a

00:24:35.955 --> 00:24:40.155
broader range of sounds that they
could, could load into software.

00:24:40.185 --> 00:24:44.355
Mark Holden: Yeah, it would basically
capture and play back digital sound so you

00:24:44.355 --> 00:24:46.995
could sample anything and play it back.

00:24:46.995 --> 00:24:51.495
And so as I started to ask Tom these
questions, uh, the inventor, it became

00:24:51.495 --> 00:24:56.505
very, very clear to me that the path of
least resistance in the area that needed

00:24:56.505 --> 00:24:59.880
this more than anything was video games.

00:25:00.270 --> 00:25:04.080
And I said to him, you know what, I
think what we need to do is we need

00:25:04.080 --> 00:25:07.950
to, given 'cause I said to him, you
know, well, can, we go ahead and sample

00:25:08.340 --> 00:25:11.280
anything, voices, music, sound effects?

00:25:11.280 --> 00:25:11.940
He said, yeah.

00:25:12.780 --> 00:25:17.280
I said, okay, well, um, why don't
we hack into a game and we'll

00:25:17.310 --> 00:25:19.320
create our own sound effect library?

00:25:19.320 --> 00:25:23.400
And it was like 10 or 12 different sound
effects that, in this case it was a flight

00:25:23.400 --> 00:25:25.620
simulator, the, uh, Microsoft Flight Sim.

00:25:26.220 --> 00:25:30.420
And we had, uh, the, the, the
ambient sound of inside the cockpit.

00:25:30.420 --> 00:25:33.720
We had, uh, rockets firing,
we had chafe firing.

00:25:33.720 --> 00:25:37.770
We had, um, you know, landing gear
up, landing gear down, that sort of

00:25:37.770 --> 00:25:40.200
thing, and we hacked into this game.

00:25:40.290 --> 00:25:40.530
And,

00:25:40.530 --> 00:25:41.490
Jim Conrad: This is fascinating.

00:25:41.520 --> 00:25:41.880
Mark Holden: Yeah.

00:25:41.880 --> 00:25:47.220
Jim Conrad: So the evolution of gaming
sound started with, uh, your company?

00:25:47.220 --> 00:25:48.570
Mark Holden: This company called M Sound.

00:25:48.980 --> 00:25:51.160
In Vancouver, right here.

00:25:51.180 --> 00:25:53.520
And so Tom said, uh, are you sure?

00:25:53.520 --> 00:25:55.800
And I said, Tom, I'll tell you what.

00:25:56.530 --> 00:26:02.129
Mark my words, one day, the video business
will be bigger than the movie business.

00:26:02.189 --> 00:26:02.429
Jim Conrad: Yeah.

00:26:02.760 --> 00:26:03.209
And today?

00:26:03.215 --> 00:26:04.540
Mark Holden: And he said,
he said, there's no way.

00:26:04.570 --> 00:26:05.590
I said, well, yeah.

00:26:05.610 --> 00:26:06.300
Jim Conrad: And today it is.

00:26:06.330 --> 00:26:07.260
Mark Holden: It is absolutely.

00:26:07.260 --> 00:26:08.399
Jim Conrad: As big if not bigger.

00:26:08.450 --> 00:26:09.160
Mark Holden: Way bigger.

00:26:09.550 --> 00:26:10.090
Way bigger.

00:26:10.090 --> 00:26:15.060
When you, you configure the 3 point
something billion online gamers today,

00:26:15.175 --> 00:26:16.465
it's, you know, it's half to planet.

00:26:16.465 --> 00:26:20.760
Jim Conrad: So you, so you pivoted from
music to software with, with sound,

00:26:20.790 --> 00:26:25.770
which is your forte, and then carried
on with that through the last 20 or

00:26:25.770 --> 00:26:28.350
so years, doing other things as well?

00:26:28.500 --> 00:26:28.709
Mark Holden: Yeah.

00:26:28.709 --> 00:26:32.429
What it did, Jim, was it introduced
me, you know, we, we did end up going

00:26:32.429 --> 00:26:34.889
and, and had some great success.

00:26:35.310 --> 00:26:38.399
The company was ultimately acquired
by a semiconductor company, which

00:26:38.399 --> 00:26:39.419
didn't know what to do with it.

00:26:39.419 --> 00:26:42.350
And it was a shame 'cause
it just kind of fell apart.

00:26:42.350 --> 00:26:47.760
But, but you know what it did was it
connected me with the world of, of, and

00:26:47.760 --> 00:26:49.320
at that time they called it high tech.

00:26:49.380 --> 00:26:53.160
It wasn't, now it's just technology,
but it connected me with, with the

00:26:53.160 --> 00:26:54.780
technology world and I loved it.

00:26:54.900 --> 00:26:58.815
I mean, I remember going to the
Consumer Electronics show back in 91,

00:26:58.815 --> 00:27:01.500
92 when everything was under one roof.

00:27:01.500 --> 00:27:05.460
You had all the, you had Microsoft,
you had Apple, you had all the video

00:27:05.460 --> 00:27:07.580
game companies all under one pavilion.

00:27:08.080 --> 00:27:10.890
Jim Conrad: So you could show up with
your technology and go, Hey guys.

00:27:10.950 --> 00:27:11.190
Mark Holden: Yeah.

00:27:11.190 --> 00:27:11.490
And we did.

00:27:11.490 --> 00:27:11.790
Jim Conrad: Guess what?

00:27:11.850 --> 00:27:12.930
Mark Holden: Yeah, and we did.

00:27:12.930 --> 00:27:15.300
And I basically, I was batting a thousand.

00:27:15.300 --> 00:27:19.680
I mean, I went into every single video
game company, Electronic Arts, Broderbund,

00:27:19.710 --> 00:27:25.400
Maxis, Accolade, Activision, Lucas
Arts, all of them, and I would literally

00:27:25.400 --> 00:27:29.030
take my tech team, we'd hack into one
of their games and then I'd show up.

00:27:29.030 --> 00:27:29.900
Jim Conrad: Build the sound design.

00:27:29.930 --> 00:27:30.290
Mark Holden: Yeah.

00:27:30.350 --> 00:27:32.840
And I'd play them their
game with clicks and pops.

00:27:33.020 --> 00:27:35.510
And they'd be going, so what are
you, what are you doing here?

00:27:35.510 --> 00:27:36.410
Why are you here?

00:27:36.770 --> 00:27:40.040
And then I would turn that off and then
I'd say, okay, now I wanna play your game.

00:27:40.250 --> 00:27:45.310
And it would be like going from a silent
movie to a George Lucas soundtrack, right?

00:27:49.520 --> 00:27:53.690
Jim Conrad: So the beginning of this
story and then to now, what is the, the

00:27:53.690 --> 00:27:57.590
kernel of truth throughout that, that is
sort of running through this whole thing?

00:27:57.590 --> 00:28:01.610
Is it to be true to your
talent, to trust your talent?

00:28:02.240 --> 00:28:05.340
Mark Holden: You know, I think
I've, I've always had an ability

00:28:05.340 --> 00:28:10.530
or a, I've been fortunate enough
to be able to read, read a room.

00:28:10.530 --> 00:28:13.530
What I mean by that metaphorically
is I can kind of take a look around

00:28:13.530 --> 00:28:16.930
and say, in this case as I did,
you know, here's a sound thing.

00:28:16.930 --> 00:28:19.230
One could easily have just
said, oh, that's really cool.

00:28:19.439 --> 00:28:20.639
Jim Conrad: But not see the opportunity.

00:28:20.639 --> 00:28:21.510
Mark Holden: Right, exactly.

00:28:21.870 --> 00:28:24.209
And I seem to be able
to connect those dots.

00:28:24.840 --> 00:28:25.949
Jim Conrad: Keeping an open mind.

00:28:26.429 --> 00:28:26.730
Mark Holden: Yep.

00:28:27.179 --> 00:28:30.899
And I think the, one of the biggest
things that, if you're asking me about,

00:28:30.899 --> 00:28:34.439
well, the things that I've learned
over the years that is, and this is

00:28:34.439 --> 00:28:39.419
gonna sound cliche, we've heard it a
million times, but trust your instincts.

00:28:39.840 --> 00:28:44.879
And the difference between fear and
instinct is sometimes an extremely

00:28:44.879 --> 00:28:48.659
fine line and very, very difficult
at times to determine the difference.

00:28:49.320 --> 00:28:54.135
The fear emotion and the instinct,
instinct is telling you, uh,

00:28:54.645 --> 00:28:56.115
maybe not such a good idea.

00:28:56.565 --> 00:29:00.135
Is it that or are you just
afraid of failing at this?

00:29:00.405 --> 00:29:03.465
And I think, you know, I'd like
to say I've gotten better at that.

00:29:03.465 --> 00:29:04.275
I think I have.

00:29:04.755 --> 00:29:06.555
Jim Conrad: How is your
relationship with fear?

00:29:07.125 --> 00:29:07.665
Mark Holden: It's good.

00:29:08.085 --> 00:29:08.415
Yeah.

00:29:08.415 --> 00:29:09.375
I am, I am, uh,

00:29:09.405 --> 00:29:11.655
Jim Conrad: 'Cause you understand
you can't eliminate it.

00:29:11.775 --> 00:29:12.135
Mark Holden: That's right.

00:29:12.135 --> 00:29:13.335
Jim Conrad: You just have to recognize it.

00:29:13.335 --> 00:29:13.665
Mark Holden: Yeah.

00:29:13.965 --> 00:29:16.245
Jim Conrad: And, at least
that's what I've learned, try to

00:29:16.605 --> 00:29:17.985
create a relationship with it.

00:29:18.045 --> 00:29:18.645
Mark Holden: That's right.

00:29:18.645 --> 00:29:24.315
And I think for me, one of the things
I do is I very carefully look at

00:29:24.645 --> 00:29:29.025
who's creating the noise and the
stories that are being made up in my

00:29:29.025 --> 00:29:31.035
head about that fear are me, right?

00:29:31.065 --> 00:29:35.295
It's, so, you know, I'm afraid of that
because I just made myself up five

00:29:35.295 --> 00:29:38.085
different reasons when in fact if I
just stop for a second and look at

00:29:38.085 --> 00:29:42.615
those five reasons, they may or may
not be true or effective or valid,

00:29:42.795 --> 00:29:46.575
but that's it, you know, making up
the, the stories in my head that have

00:29:46.575 --> 00:29:48.045
caused the fear in the first place.

00:29:48.075 --> 00:29:51.135
Jim Conrad: Well, as Nietzsche said,
you know, someone is ruining my life.

00:29:51.510 --> 00:29:52.170
It's true.

00:29:52.740 --> 00:29:53.220
You are.

00:29:55.410 --> 00:29:55.890
Mark Holden: Yeah.

00:29:56.370 --> 00:29:57.660
Jim Conrad: Because of your fear.

00:29:57.810 --> 00:29:58.140
Mark Holden: Yeah.

00:29:58.290 --> 00:30:00.930
Jim Conrad: And recognizing
that and working through it

00:30:01.110 --> 00:30:02.700
enables you to be successful.

00:30:02.880 --> 00:30:05.850
Mark Holden, thank you for
being on the Conovision podcast.

00:30:05.850 --> 00:30:07.270
Mark Holden: Well, it's my pleasure, Jim.

00:30:07.610 --> 00:30:16.350
Jim Conrad: And now it's time to
talk about the music business and

00:30:16.350 --> 00:30:21.360
how radio and records played a very
important part of that business.

00:30:23.010 --> 00:30:26.830
I want to introduce my three
illustrious guests, Mr. Don Shafer.

00:30:26.850 --> 00:30:27.240
Hi Don.

00:30:27.630 --> 00:30:28.230
Don Shafer: Hello, Jim.

00:30:28.680 --> 00:30:29.600
Jim Conrad: Frank Gigliotti.

00:30:29.760 --> 00:30:30.180
Frank Gigliotti: Hey bud.

00:30:30.660 --> 00:30:32.910
Jim Conrad: And uh, my
good friend Dave Chesney.

00:30:32.970 --> 00:30:33.780
Dave Chesney: Nice to be here, Jim.

00:30:33.900 --> 00:30:34.200
Jim Conrad: Thank you.

00:30:34.590 --> 00:30:38.610
And my relationship to you guys is, I'm
from the radio business way back when.

00:30:38.640 --> 00:30:41.940
Don, you were my program director
at CFOX back in the early eighties.

00:30:41.940 --> 00:30:43.260
Don Shafer: Albeit a bad one, but yes.

00:30:43.290 --> 00:30:43.630
Jim Conrad: Yeah.

00:30:43.770 --> 00:30:44.220
Okay.

00:30:44.370 --> 00:30:47.430
Frank, you were a record
rep with CBS Records.

00:30:47.500 --> 00:30:48.960
Frank Gigliotti: Albeit
at a bad one, but yes.

00:30:51.510 --> 00:30:54.330
Jim Conrad: Well, the mock humility
in this room is getting really high.

00:30:54.540 --> 00:30:57.360
And Dave, you were with CBS as well.

00:30:57.450 --> 00:30:57.930
Dave Chesney: Good one.

00:30:57.930 --> 00:30:58.285
A good one.

00:30:58.830 --> 00:30:59.130
Jim Conrad: Good one.

00:30:59.135 --> 00:31:00.060
You were, you were the good guys.

00:31:00.360 --> 00:31:00.550
Dave Chesney: Yeah.

00:31:00.790 --> 00:31:02.365
Had to always be a bad guy and a good guy.

00:31:02.370 --> 00:31:06.090
Jim Conrad: Um, so back in the day, I
know that we haven't prepared anything

00:31:06.090 --> 00:31:11.490
or whatever, but give me, Don, a story
about what it was like when one of these

00:31:11.490 --> 00:31:15.840
guys would come in and try to get you
to play one of their artists on the air.

00:31:15.990 --> 00:31:17.010
What was the procedure?

00:31:17.010 --> 00:31:19.680
What, they would give you a call
and say, Hey, I got this hot record.

00:31:19.680 --> 00:31:20.520
You've gotta listen to it.

00:31:20.520 --> 00:31:21.910
Don Shafer: Sometimes,
sometimes there was a procedure.

00:31:21.910 --> 00:31:23.190
And sometimes there was none.

00:31:23.790 --> 00:31:24.960
But, you know, but we,

00:31:24.960 --> 00:31:25.800
Jim Conrad: They just ambush you.

00:31:25.860 --> 00:31:29.670
Don Shafer: We, well, we worked at a time
when, when we were developing a brand new

00:31:29.670 --> 00:31:31.730
format, we didn't even know what it was.

00:31:31.790 --> 00:31:37.850
It was somewhere between Progressive to
AOR to, it had a bunch of names, uh.

00:31:37.920 --> 00:31:39.630
Jim Conrad: Abrams Burkhart Superstars.

00:31:39.630 --> 00:31:40.290
Don Shafer: Well, that was after.

00:31:40.290 --> 00:31:40.980
That would be after,

00:31:40.980 --> 00:31:41.380
Jim Conrad: That was later.

00:31:41.380 --> 00:31:41.470
Okay.

00:31:41.595 --> 00:31:43.110
Don Shafer: That's, that's
when it actually started to get

00:31:43.110 --> 00:31:45.500
sophisticated and run by consultants.

00:31:45.560 --> 00:31:47.370
And that's when it
started to get squeezed.

00:31:47.490 --> 00:31:49.590
Yeah, but, uh, it was a really nice time.

00:31:49.590 --> 00:31:50.490
It was a fun time.

00:31:50.640 --> 00:31:53.460
And these guys would,
either show up or call.

00:31:53.640 --> 00:31:56.940
I think we got to a point where
it became a regular occurrence.

00:31:57.150 --> 00:32:01.260
It became a, an appointment, but
it wasn't, it wasn't out of the

00:32:01.260 --> 00:32:03.870
question to have these guys show
up and say, I got a great song.

00:32:04.140 --> 00:32:05.460
And we would say, great.

00:32:05.460 --> 00:32:06.300
Let's put it on the air.

00:32:06.600 --> 00:32:08.580
And, you know, that just
doesn't happen anymore.

00:32:09.030 --> 00:32:09.179
Jim Conrad: No.

00:32:09.480 --> 00:32:11.189
Don Shafer: You know, the thing
that I really liked being on

00:32:11.189 --> 00:32:14.610
the air and, and, mostly now you
were sha in the box, were you?

00:32:14.610 --> 00:32:17.310
Yeah, I met these guys when I was
on the air, but when they walked

00:32:17.310 --> 00:32:21.449
into a station, into a studio
and said, this is a killer track.

00:32:21.570 --> 00:32:21.840
It was.

00:32:22.470 --> 00:32:26.040
You mean, and you would have no
hesitation to put it on the air never

00:32:26.040 --> 00:32:27.990
having heard it before and sharing it.

00:32:28.170 --> 00:32:32.040
Jim Conrad: Now, you guys being record
reps, would you get the edict from

00:32:32.040 --> 00:32:36.420
on high to say, you've gotta promote
these guys, even if the band was shit?

00:32:36.510 --> 00:32:37.350
Frank Gigliotti: Yeah, we did.

00:32:37.350 --> 00:32:39.690
And most of the time we
just ignored them, you know?

00:32:39.690 --> 00:32:40.980
And there was a reason for that.

00:32:41.040 --> 00:32:45.210
It didn't do us any good to go in and
get a record played that clearly didn't

00:32:45.210 --> 00:32:47.370
fit the audience of that station.

00:32:47.520 --> 00:32:48.550
So we did our homework.

00:32:48.550 --> 00:32:52.140
And we knew, we, we felt, we knew
what was gonna happen on the air

00:32:52.140 --> 00:32:53.370
and what was gonna work good.

00:32:53.400 --> 00:32:57.360
You know, the problem was that if we got a
record played, they shouldn't have been on

00:32:57.360 --> 00:32:59.820
it, a station would've lost the audience.

00:32:59.820 --> 00:33:03.840
But worse for us is that our salesmen
would put all of these records into

00:33:03.840 --> 00:33:07.380
the record stores and then we'd end
up eating them because the audience

00:33:07.380 --> 00:33:08.640
didn't like what they were hearing.

00:33:09.270 --> 00:33:11.970
Jim Conrad: Did anybody see the
one and only season of Vinyl?

00:33:12.515 --> 00:33:12.685
Dave Chesney: Yeah.

00:33:12.905 --> 00:33:13.065
Yeah.

00:33:13.065 --> 00:33:15.035
Horrible.

00:33:19.785 --> 00:33:23.595
Jim Conrad: So I saw a few episodes,
Dave, and then I, I made a mental note.

00:33:23.595 --> 00:33:27.465
I say, I know guys who did exactly
this, so I, I gotta find them

00:33:27.465 --> 00:33:29.385
and ask them, how true was it?

00:33:29.865 --> 00:33:32.955
It was kind of like really fictional?

00:33:33.225 --> 00:33:34.914
Dave Chesney: No, there
were elements of truth.

00:33:34.914 --> 00:33:38.145
And we'll leave a name out of it, but
everybody in this room, certainly on

00:33:38.145 --> 00:33:42.115
this side of the room knows a certain
A and R director in Toronto that was

00:33:42.115 --> 00:33:44.084
almost a caricature of that person.

00:33:44.175 --> 00:33:47.415
But to just back up and finish
off what you said to Shaf, all

00:33:47.415 --> 00:33:49.544
that we had was our reputation.

00:33:49.574 --> 00:33:54.044
So to echo what Frank said, we
could only go into Shaf or whoever

00:33:54.135 --> 00:33:56.115
and say, this is a monster record.

00:33:56.324 --> 00:33:57.314
Jim Conrad: Only if it was.

00:33:57.675 --> 00:34:00.524
Dave Chesney: If we really believed in
it, you had to do the company, you know,

00:34:00.524 --> 00:34:02.264
did you talk to Shaf about that record?

00:34:02.264 --> 00:34:03.284
Yeah, I talked to him about it.

00:34:03.284 --> 00:34:04.365
He's looking at it, you know.

00:34:05.264 --> 00:34:08.025
But when you go in and slam your
hand on the desk and say, all right,

00:34:08.025 --> 00:34:09.705
look, we're taking this one downtown.

00:34:09.705 --> 00:34:12.255
You can either do it now
or you can do it later.

00:34:12.645 --> 00:34:16.125
You know, so that type of passion,
I think, you know, I always, I would

00:34:16.125 --> 00:34:17.685
never whore myself, that's all I had.

00:34:17.685 --> 00:34:17.745
Jim Conrad: Yeah.

00:34:17.804 --> 00:34:18.525
You had your reputation.

00:34:18.525 --> 00:34:20.985
Dave Chesney: You know, in this
business, at every sector of this

00:34:20.985 --> 00:34:24.315
business, and it still exists today
is will someone take your call?

00:34:24.375 --> 00:34:25.455
That gives you the power.

00:34:25.455 --> 00:34:27.225
In the old days, it was the Rolodex.

00:34:27.225 --> 00:34:28.725
So who, who could you call?

00:34:28.755 --> 00:34:30.465
We were, we were in the service industry.

00:34:30.495 --> 00:34:33.045
I mean, it's what the
radio stations played.

00:34:33.075 --> 00:34:34.605
They played tunes, and we had them.

00:34:34.815 --> 00:34:37.575
In those days, if you wanted a
Bruce Springsteen record, you could

00:34:37.575 --> 00:34:41.085
get it from one person and one
person locally, and that was Frank.

00:34:41.235 --> 00:34:45.345
It was Michael Jackson or, or Cheap
Trick, or you know, whoever it was.

00:34:45.915 --> 00:34:48.084
On the Epic side, you had to talk to me.

00:34:48.174 --> 00:34:51.375
Well eventually record companies
just gave away all that power to

00:34:51.375 --> 00:34:53.864
indies and then digital distribution.

00:34:53.864 --> 00:34:55.544
I mean, I have no idea, I
don't even know whether they

00:34:55.544 --> 00:34:56.745
have promotion people anymore.

00:34:56.745 --> 00:35:00.674
But in those days, we had it, we had
the exclusive, we could walk into a

00:35:00.674 --> 00:35:04.125
radio station and there is your first
listen to the new Cheap Trick record.

00:35:04.444 --> 00:35:08.444
Jim Conrad: Shaf, who in your
mind was a standout break?

00:35:08.475 --> 00:35:11.145
Who did you break when no one else
had heard this band and all of a

00:35:11.145 --> 00:35:12.560
sudden these guys brought a band.

00:35:12.799 --> 00:35:14.955
Don Shafer: I probably have to
rely on these guys to remember.

00:35:15.015 --> 00:35:16.095
My memory's shot.

00:35:16.185 --> 00:35:21.165
We worked at such a great time in music
where it was developing, and we, we,

00:35:21.165 --> 00:35:24.944
we caught that ride between the end
of the sixties into the seventies and

00:35:24.944 --> 00:35:26.865
eighties and, and it just kept going.

00:35:27.285 --> 00:35:30.975
And every week there'd be
another dozen wonderful bands.

00:35:30.975 --> 00:35:33.295
I mean, it could have
been Bruce Springsteen.

00:35:33.319 --> 00:35:36.345
Frank Gigliotti: I think you have
to ask that question by categorizing

00:35:36.345 --> 00:35:38.700
Canadian or international.

00:35:38.790 --> 00:35:39.450
Jim Conrad: That's right.

00:35:39.455 --> 00:35:39.745
That's right.

00:35:39.750 --> 00:35:39.930
Frank Gigliotti: Right.

00:35:40.590 --> 00:35:41.220
Because obviously,

00:35:41.220 --> 00:35:42.930
Jim Conrad: Definitely,
definitely a separation there.

00:35:43.440 --> 00:35:43.980
Absolutely.

00:35:43.980 --> 00:35:45.750
Frank Gigliotti: Especially in
the seventies and eighties when I

00:35:45.750 --> 00:35:47.220
worked in the business separation.

00:35:47.640 --> 00:35:51.150
Jim Conrad: So a canadian band,
the rap was always, especially with

00:35:51.150 --> 00:35:55.080
your American counterparts, well,
if you didn't have that 33% rule.

00:35:55.080 --> 00:35:55.140
Frank Gigliotti: Yeah.

00:35:55.140 --> 00:35:55.895
If it wasn't for CanCon.

00:35:56.070 --> 00:35:56.490
Jim Conrad: Yeah.

00:35:56.490 --> 00:35:58.200
This, this band would never be played.

00:35:58.200 --> 00:35:58.500
Frank Gigliotti: Yeah.

00:35:58.620 --> 00:36:00.360
Let me tell you something
that was really interesting.

00:36:00.390 --> 00:36:00.570
Jim Conrad: Okay.

00:36:00.780 --> 00:36:04.140
Frank Gigliotti: Canadian music,
when I was there, before Celine

00:36:04.140 --> 00:36:06.330
Dion, before everything was Canadian.

00:36:06.420 --> 00:36:06.570
Jim Conrad: Yeah.

00:36:06.720 --> 00:36:10.110
Frank Gigliotti: We got
30 to 33% of the airplay.

00:36:10.380 --> 00:36:13.530
And the listener didn't know
that it was a Canadian artist.

00:36:13.620 --> 00:36:18.290
Our Canadian artists were selling
maybe 3 to 5% of the catalog.

00:36:18.290 --> 00:36:19.009
That was it.

00:36:19.339 --> 00:36:22.609
So for whatever reason, they
weren't buying the Canadian.

00:36:22.910 --> 00:36:27.649
I mean, I can remember presenting a
gold record to Murray McLaughlin and

00:36:27.649 --> 00:36:32.395
saying, congratulations, we're still
$53,000 in the hole, but, you know.

00:36:32.395 --> 00:36:33.589
Jim Conrad: But here's your gold record.

00:36:33.589 --> 00:36:35.060
Frank Gigliotti: Well, here's
your gold record anyway.

00:36:35.060 --> 00:36:36.230
You know, that's the way it was.

00:36:36.649 --> 00:36:36.919
Jim Conrad: Yeah.

00:36:37.055 --> 00:36:40.250
Dave Chesney: It was a period of time we
went through and I think that period, you

00:36:40.250 --> 00:36:43.759
know, I mean, not that we were working
in the industry from, but if you take mid

00:36:43.759 --> 00:36:48.410
60's to 70 and just take a look at that
British explosion from the Beatles and

00:36:48.410 --> 00:36:50.009
everything, and right into Led Zeppelin.

00:36:50.039 --> 00:36:50.830
Jimmy Hendrix.

00:36:50.859 --> 00:36:52.220
It was like one five year period.

00:36:52.370 --> 00:36:55.879
So I think at, at some point in time,
people, uh, historians will look

00:36:55.879 --> 00:36:57.740
back at the era that we went through,

00:36:57.799 --> 00:36:58.640
Jim Conrad: The golden age.

00:36:59.029 --> 00:37:00.220
Dave Chesney: Absolute golden age.

00:37:00.279 --> 00:37:01.319
Absolute golden age.

00:37:01.370 --> 00:37:06.500
But to itemize one of the things that
CFOX Radio, uh, when Don Schafer was

00:37:06.500 --> 00:37:09.620
there, uh, was an act that I had and
I'd received an advanced cassette.

00:37:09.625 --> 00:37:12.625
So, we got advanced cassettes,
which was a common thing.

00:37:12.625 --> 00:37:13.674
And it was like, listen to this.

00:37:13.674 --> 00:37:16.134
We're gonna release this record in
three months and you know, just get

00:37:16.134 --> 00:37:17.484
yourself familiar with it or whatever.

00:37:17.665 --> 00:37:21.174
And the Stevie Ray Vaughan, Texas
Flood cassette came in and I

00:37:21.174 --> 00:37:22.375
listened to it and I was like, wow.

00:37:24.504 --> 00:37:25.015
Pretty cool.

00:37:25.015 --> 00:37:26.484
It's not that it's terribly original.

00:37:26.484 --> 00:37:29.365
You can hear the Hendrixs, you can
hear the blues mixtures or whatever.

00:37:30.064 --> 00:37:33.774
And then the head office decided that
they were gonna put a spiff out on it.

00:37:34.075 --> 00:37:34.345
Spiff.

00:37:34.345 --> 00:37:36.625
A spiff was a, not a spliff.

00:37:36.745 --> 00:37:37.165
A spiff.

00:37:37.194 --> 00:37:37.794
Jim Conrad: Okay, great.

00:37:37.855 --> 00:37:39.365
Dave Chesney: It comes
into the story later.

00:37:39.745 --> 00:37:43.734
Uh, so it was basically, you know,
whatever region across the country,

00:37:44.125 --> 00:37:47.935
'cause we had five or six promotion reps
across the country for various regions.

00:37:48.294 --> 00:37:52.765
So I listened to it and I thought, okay,
well I, I can win a compact disc player.

00:37:53.245 --> 00:37:54.084
Woo.

00:37:54.274 --> 00:37:56.054
Yippee ki-yay.

00:37:56.754 --> 00:38:00.299
The magic part about that was
it, I thought, okay, well, we

00:38:00.299 --> 00:38:02.790
didn't get the impression that
the US was gonna be there for us.

00:38:02.790 --> 00:38:06.299
'Cause quite often, as Frank
identified, we busted our humps to

00:38:06.299 --> 00:38:09.750
try to break the Canadian acts and
quite often had to follow the US lead.

00:38:09.870 --> 00:38:10.680
But I thought, you know what?

00:38:10.680 --> 00:38:12.450
I need a CD player and 500 bucks.

00:38:12.450 --> 00:38:13.470
I'm gonna figure out something else.

00:38:13.470 --> 00:38:16.830
So Rick Shannon was the uh, music
director of CFOX in those days.

00:38:17.370 --> 00:38:17.640
Jim Conrad: Oh yes.

00:38:17.640 --> 00:38:19.890
Dave Chesney: So rather than
going straight to Rick, I knew

00:38:19.890 --> 00:38:23.310
through the station that there were
various people, copywriters, George

00:38:23.310 --> 00:38:25.390
down in engineering, blues acts.

00:38:25.620 --> 00:38:26.640
People that would dig blues.

00:38:26.640 --> 00:38:29.220
And I went down to The Yale with a bunch
of cassettes and I gave 'em to every,

00:38:29.250 --> 00:38:30.810
every drunk they could sit up straight.

00:38:31.170 --> 00:38:35.100
And I think there was a guy on CFOX on
Sunday Night Stormin' Norman, I worked

00:38:35.100 --> 00:38:37.030
every blues angle I possibly could.

00:38:37.030 --> 00:38:40.680
So by the time that the record did come
out and I walked it into Rick at the

00:38:40.680 --> 00:38:44.580
station, he had heard about people in the
station going, Hey, have you heard that

00:38:44.580 --> 00:38:48.020
Stevie Ray Vaughn record that Ches is,
and he's like, what are you talking about?

00:38:48.340 --> 00:38:52.110
So had the extreme pleasure of giving
Stevie Ray his first gold album and

00:38:52.110 --> 00:38:54.839
I will thank you Shaf and the Fox
for that because without that, at one

00:38:54.839 --> 00:38:58.095
point in time, Vancouver was 12% Frank?

00:38:58.095 --> 00:38:59.505
12, 14% of sales?

00:38:59.505 --> 00:39:00.015
15?

00:39:00.165 --> 00:39:00.735
Frank Gigliotti: Not even that.

00:39:00.735 --> 00:39:03.495
Dave Chesney: We were like
80% of the sales in Canada was

00:39:03.495 --> 00:39:04.705
outta the Vancouver branch.

00:39:04.705 --> 00:39:06.565
Like the record absolutely blew up.

00:39:07.105 --> 00:39:08.535
Uh, would it have happened anyway?

00:39:08.535 --> 00:39:12.195
I'm sure it, well, history will never
be, will never be able to turn it back.

00:39:12.225 --> 00:39:14.194
I think an artist of Stevie's talent.

00:39:14.515 --> 00:39:15.585
But that was the type of thing.

00:39:15.585 --> 00:39:18.885
And CFOX, you know, there was no
other radio station in this market

00:39:18.885 --> 00:39:20.505
that welcomed us with open arms.

00:39:20.505 --> 00:39:22.365
We could just wander in and out and,

00:39:22.635 --> 00:39:25.115
Don Shafer: You know, being the old
guy here, I wanna go back a little bit.

00:39:25.225 --> 00:39:27.945
Because it's an important, it's
an, I think it's important.

00:39:28.305 --> 00:39:34.815
If you go back into, say, late 60's, there
were only two or three what we would call

00:39:34.815 --> 00:39:36.525
classic rock stations in the country.

00:39:36.555 --> 00:39:41.165
There were CHOM-FM in Montreal,
which went from CKGM FM to CHOM.

00:39:41.435 --> 00:39:43.145
And that was in 1969.

00:39:43.595 --> 00:39:46.415
And there was CHUM-FM hadn't happened yet.

00:39:46.715 --> 00:39:51.485
It was, about to happen and LG FM,
whatever it was called in those days

00:39:51.755 --> 00:39:56.165
with, uh, JB Shane and the earlier
crew were, I mean they were technically

00:39:56.165 --> 00:40:00.475
the first two rock stations or
progressive stations in the country.

00:40:00.685 --> 00:40:02.485
There was WBCN in Boston.

00:40:02.485 --> 00:40:06.445
There was KSAN in San
Francisco, there was KPPC in LA.

00:40:06.595 --> 00:40:07.075
That was it.

00:40:07.080 --> 00:40:07.525
Jim Conrad: And that was it.

00:40:07.555 --> 00:40:08.065
Don Shafer: That was it.

00:40:08.605 --> 00:40:10.075
That was progressive rock.

00:40:10.080 --> 00:40:11.185
Jim Conrad: Playing, playing album rock.

00:40:11.365 --> 00:40:11.455
Don Shafer: Yeah.

00:40:11.455 --> 00:40:17.545
Playing and then moving from 45 to
the longer songs in between 69 and 75.

00:40:17.575 --> 00:40:19.105
Like it just exploded.

00:40:20.665 --> 00:40:25.705
And that's why we had these guys
and some wonderful, wonderful music

00:40:25.705 --> 00:40:29.755
people that brought us talent that
wanted to work with the radio station.

00:40:29.785 --> 00:40:33.665
I remember, you know, Frank and I
went to Seattle to interview Heart.

00:40:33.875 --> 00:40:35.305
And Heart was like family.

00:40:35.425 --> 00:40:39.085
They weren't just a fly in and
fly out, you know, type of affair.

00:40:39.295 --> 00:40:40.855
They actually came into the radio station.

00:40:40.855 --> 00:40:41.455
They hung out.

00:40:41.515 --> 00:40:43.045
We actually did things together.

00:40:43.075 --> 00:40:45.265
I mean, I still remember
Supertramp coming to town.

00:40:45.365 --> 00:40:47.065
Supertramp was like family.

00:40:47.635 --> 00:40:52.275
So a lot of, a lot of these bands
got their chops working with,

00:40:52.424 --> 00:40:53.845
you know, a station like CFOX.

00:40:53.865 --> 00:40:57.374
Jim Conrad: Back when radio
stations and record companies and

00:40:57.374 --> 00:41:01.424
bands all worked together, 'cause
they, were mutually beneficial.

00:41:01.634 --> 00:41:05.205
Don Shafer: Well, we love, we love what
we were doing, which is a lot different

00:41:05.535 --> 00:41:06.975
than what's happening in radio today.

00:41:07.185 --> 00:41:14.345
Jim Conrad: So now we're on to
bands and talent and backstage and

00:41:14.345 --> 00:41:19.235
performance, gimme your top three
favorite all time, either bands or

00:41:19.235 --> 00:41:21.305
performances that just stand out.

00:41:21.575 --> 00:41:22.055
Don Shafer: Top three.

00:41:22.055 --> 00:41:23.194
I'd have to start with Police.

00:41:25.165 --> 00:41:25.915
At the Commodore.

00:41:25.915 --> 00:41:26.475
Jim Conrad: At the Commodore.

00:41:26.495 --> 00:41:27.815
So when they were unknown.

00:41:27.815 --> 00:41:28.370
Don Shafer: When they, yeah.

00:41:28.685 --> 00:41:29.195
Unknown.

00:41:29.195 --> 00:41:31.655
First, first on the road and blew me away.

00:41:39.755 --> 00:41:40.015
Jim Conrad: Frank.

00:41:40.455 --> 00:41:43.715
Frank Gigliotti: Billy Joel,
especially in the early days.

00:41:47.495 --> 00:41:51.095
He put on just an amazing, concert.

00:41:51.095 --> 00:41:55.845
And, uh, actually we did a Billy
Joel live from the Queen Elizabeth

00:41:55.845 --> 00:41:58.674
Theater was Roy Hennessy over CFOX.

00:41:59.145 --> 00:42:03.555
And, uh, half an hour before the show,
somebody forgot to phone the phone lines

00:42:06.075 --> 00:42:07.544
to get the thing broadcast.

00:42:07.544 --> 00:42:10.995
So, uh, here we are delaying the
thing for half an hour, but we would

00:42:10.995 --> 00:42:13.395
run the reel to reel down the street.

00:42:13.395 --> 00:42:16.004
We bicycle it down the street
to the station and then run

00:42:16.004 --> 00:42:17.415
back and get, get the other one.

00:42:17.415 --> 00:42:19.035
Then they get the other
one and get the other one.

00:42:19.035 --> 00:42:21.165
Jim Conrad: So you recorded the concert
on reel to reel and then, and then

00:42:21.254 --> 00:42:22.395
biked it over to the ready stage?

00:42:22.484 --> 00:42:24.435
Frank Gigliotti: Had to, because we
didn't, nobody phoned the phone company.

00:42:24.435 --> 00:42:26.055
Jim Conrad: I think that's
called, that's called analog.

00:42:26.055 --> 00:42:26.774
Frank Gigliotti: I guess it is.

00:42:26.895 --> 00:42:27.055
Yeah.

00:42:27.194 --> 00:42:28.305
Yeah, you can do that.

00:42:30.205 --> 00:42:31.575
Bruce Springsteen.

00:42:32.955 --> 00:42:33.045
Well,

00:42:38.395 --> 00:42:43.815
I remember taking the real Roy Hennessy
in a limousine down to Seattle.

00:42:44.355 --> 00:42:45.915
It was just before Christmas.

00:42:46.185 --> 00:42:47.985
It was at the, uh, Seattle Center.

00:42:48.075 --> 00:42:52.605
And so, you know, Springsteen comes
out and he does his four hours, right?

00:42:52.605 --> 00:42:54.645
And he does Santa Claus Is Coming To Town.

00:42:54.645 --> 00:42:56.685
He's got snow coming down on the stage.

00:43:02.685 --> 00:43:03.465
Show's over.

00:43:03.754 --> 00:43:05.254
Uh, everybody starts to leave.

00:43:05.254 --> 00:43:09.455
And then as I, we're just pulling
out, I'm, I'm saying, I hear somebody

00:43:09.455 --> 00:43:11.555
playing something like, what's going on?

00:43:11.555 --> 00:43:12.754
So I went back inside.

00:43:13.384 --> 00:43:16.475
Springsteen just wanted to play some more
tunes so him and the rest of the band

00:43:16.475 --> 00:43:18.214
were playing with like half an audience.

00:43:18.214 --> 00:43:18.455
Jim Conrad: Half the house.

00:43:19.745 --> 00:43:20.915
Frank Gigliotti: He just wouldn't stop.

00:43:20.975 --> 00:43:22.154
Jim Conrad: This is the real encore.

00:43:22.154 --> 00:43:22.805
Where'd you all go?

00:43:22.805 --> 00:43:23.404
Frank Gigliotti: Yeah, yeah.

00:43:24.174 --> 00:43:24.264
Don Shafer: Yeah.

00:43:24.264 --> 00:43:25.544
I'm gonna pick that as number two.

00:43:25.595 --> 00:43:25.865
Frank Gigliotti: Yeah.

00:43:25.870 --> 00:43:26.040
Jim Conrad: Yeah.

00:43:26.194 --> 00:43:26.855
That was number two.

00:43:27.214 --> 00:43:31.904
Frank Gigliotti: And in my opinion, the
best musical group I've ever worked with.

00:43:32.315 --> 00:43:32.975
Bar none.

00:43:33.065 --> 00:43:33.964
Tower of Power.

00:43:37.475 --> 00:43:38.585
Tower of Power.

00:43:38.645 --> 00:43:43.690
There's just no one has ever played
to that, that degree of perfection.

00:43:44.090 --> 00:43:44.800
Impossible.

00:43:44.870 --> 00:43:46.710
Jim Conrad: Who always
ask the musical question.

00:43:46.980 --> 00:43:47.520
What is hip?

00:43:47.580 --> 00:43:48.210
Frank Gigliotti: What is hip?

00:43:48.210 --> 00:43:48.930
What is hip?

00:43:48.960 --> 00:43:49.590
What is hip?

00:43:49.590 --> 00:43:50.140
Jim Conrad: Tell me, tell me.

00:43:50.190 --> 00:43:50.400
Yeah.

00:43:54.600 --> 00:43:59.580
Frank Gigliotti: Because you know, those
guys were as funky as a bow-legged monkey.

00:44:01.680 --> 00:44:02.700
That's funky, right?

00:44:03.810 --> 00:44:04.950
Jim Conrad: That is funky.

00:44:05.220 --> 00:44:07.810
Dave, top three or just one
or something memorable.

00:44:07.830 --> 00:44:09.720
Dave Chesney: No, I've, I've
time to, I've had time to think.

00:44:09.759 --> 00:44:13.080
So, uh, I would say number one would've
been The Clash at the Commodore.

00:44:20.190 --> 00:44:24.600
And I think everybody in the music
industry, in the lower mainland, every

00:44:24.600 --> 00:44:29.250
heavyweight, everybody came to watch
them and a lot of the detractors were

00:44:29.250 --> 00:44:30.779
there to watch 'em fall on their face.

00:44:30.990 --> 00:44:32.549
Oh, they rock, they rocked the place.

00:44:32.610 --> 00:44:33.979
That would be my top one.

00:44:34.589 --> 00:44:37.870
Number two for, uh, personal reasons
would've been Barney Bentall's

00:44:37.890 --> 00:44:39.030
first show at The Commodore,

00:44:41.640 --> 00:44:44.490
because as Frank identified, when
you can work with an act that

00:44:44.490 --> 00:44:46.350
goes from scrubbing the streets,

00:44:46.350 --> 00:44:46.680
Jim Conrad: Busking.

00:44:47.100 --> 00:44:48.060
Dave Chesney: Pretty much busking.

00:44:48.180 --> 00:44:52.260
And, uh, Barney would often say, you
know, as he looked back on his career,

00:44:52.260 --> 00:44:57.370
that that sold out Commodore show to
a, a Vancouver artist, you had arrived.

00:44:57.370 --> 00:45:02.714
And I think so that night and to turn
back the hands of time, way back when I

00:45:02.714 --> 00:45:06.645
met this bandido Frank Gigliotti for the
first time, and I saw a little ad in the

00:45:06.645 --> 00:45:10.275
Rolling Stone newspaper and Frank was
one of the only, uh, he must have had a

00:45:10.275 --> 00:45:13.020
girlfriend in Cloverdale 'cause he was the
only rep that would come out to see me.

00:45:13.595 --> 00:45:14.855
Jim Conrad: Those Cloverdale girls.

00:45:14.855 --> 00:45:16.635
Dave Chesney: Those
Cloverdale, those valley girls.

00:45:16.635 --> 00:45:20.555
And, uh, so I, I had seen a little ad,
I was a religious reader of the, uh,

00:45:20.585 --> 00:45:24.935
Rolling Stone and saw an ad and it said
last night I saw the future of rock

00:45:24.935 --> 00:45:28.045
and roll and it was Bruce Springsteen.

00:45:28.045 --> 00:45:28.635
Jon Landau.

00:45:28.635 --> 00:45:30.995
So I immediately picked up the phone
and phoned Frank and I went, Hey,

00:45:30.995 --> 00:45:32.705
you got a record by a guy named,

00:45:32.705 --> 00:45:35.055
Jim Conrad: Springstung, Springsteen?

00:45:35.075 --> 00:45:35.555
Dave Chesney: Something like that.

00:45:35.555 --> 00:45:39.185
'Cause I had read, I'd read a lot of Jon
Landau's writing in the Rolling Stone.

00:45:39.185 --> 00:45:42.365
He said, I don't know whether it's on
release schedule or not, let me check.

00:45:42.365 --> 00:45:43.295
And he called me back, he said, yeah.

00:45:43.295 --> 00:45:46.355
He said, we got a record coming out,
uh, in Greetings from Asbury Park.

00:45:46.355 --> 00:45:50.585
It's, uh, and I said, well obviously it's
not something we would play at a country

00:45:50.585 --> 00:45:52.595
station, but I'll buy it if I have to.

00:45:52.595 --> 00:45:56.255
Well, Frank brought me, not only did he
bring me a copy of it, when Springsteen

00:45:56.255 --> 00:45:59.345
played, uh, the QE theater, right, Frank?

00:45:59.405 --> 00:45:59.735
Frank Gigliotti: Yeah.

00:45:59.795 --> 00:46:00.215
QE.

00:46:00.335 --> 00:46:02.045
Dave Chesney: Frank made
sure I got a pair of tickets.

00:46:02.045 --> 00:46:04.265
Those row two kind of tickets.

00:46:04.675 --> 00:46:06.165
I left at intermission.

00:46:06.795 --> 00:46:09.345
I went home 'cause I was so afraid.

00:46:10.155 --> 00:46:12.465
He played like 90 minutes
already and then there was an

00:46:12.465 --> 00:46:14.235
intermission and I was, I went home.

00:46:14.565 --> 00:46:17.385
'Cause I was so afraid that
it was gonna let me down.

00:46:17.805 --> 00:46:19.695
I didn't stay for the
second half of the show.

00:46:20.205 --> 00:46:21.525
That's how good the first half was.

00:46:22.755 --> 00:46:26.565
Jim Conrad: To avoid being let down
you left the show halfway through.

00:46:26.565 --> 00:46:27.390
Frank Gigliotti: I remember that night.

00:46:27.395 --> 00:46:27.855
Jim Conrad: I like that.

00:46:27.855 --> 00:46:30.885
Frank Gigliotti: I remember that
night, the sound in the theater

00:46:30.885 --> 00:46:33.555
that night, Dave, had to be some
of the best we've ever heard.

00:46:33.555 --> 00:46:34.455
And I'm gonna tell you why.

00:46:34.545 --> 00:46:35.895
I was there in the afternoon.

00:46:35.955 --> 00:46:37.065
Jim Conrad: QE's got great acoustics.

00:46:37.065 --> 00:46:37.455
Always has.

00:46:37.455 --> 00:46:38.595
Frank Gigliotti: No it,
it goes beyond that.

00:46:38.655 --> 00:46:39.615
It goes beyond that.

00:46:40.325 --> 00:46:43.215
There's Springsteen for two hours.

00:46:43.634 --> 00:46:50.785
White noise, pink noise, analyzing the
room, and he's going, I need 2 DB at

00:46:50.785 --> 00:46:57.254
3 K. I need, uh, I want you to drop,
uh, you know, 2 DB or 1 DB at 10.

00:46:57.674 --> 00:46:58.395
And, uh,

00:46:58.395 --> 00:47:00.134
Jim Conrad: So he was
acoustically tuning the room.

00:47:00.165 --> 00:47:01.335
Frank Gigliotti: He and, uh,

00:47:01.335 --> 00:47:02.234
Jim Conrad: This is Bruce Springsteen.

00:47:02.270 --> 00:47:04.484
Frank Gigliotti: He and
Donovan Leitch were the only

00:47:04.484 --> 00:47:05.714
people I've ever seen do that.

00:47:06.110 --> 00:47:07.790
Unbelievable sound.

00:47:07.820 --> 00:47:09.090
You know, unbelievable sound.

00:47:09.090 --> 00:47:11.940
Of course we laughed because I,
told Bruce before he came out, I

00:47:11.940 --> 00:47:13.410
said, listen, this is Vancouver.

00:47:13.800 --> 00:47:17.100
'Cause every time he'd walk out on
stage, what would happen, everybody

00:47:17.100 --> 00:47:22.930
would stand up for like 10 minutes, you
know, and, uh, I said, this is Vancouver.

00:47:22.930 --> 00:47:26.260
They appreciate what you do, but
they're not as excitable as the fans

00:47:26.260 --> 00:47:28.210
in Seattle or San Francisco, whatever.

00:47:28.450 --> 00:47:31.600
So I said, don't be surprised if
you walk out or nobody stands up.

00:47:32.050 --> 00:47:35.170
So he's going out there and he
started off with Badlands, remember

00:47:35.170 --> 00:47:36.430
that was his opening number.

00:47:36.790 --> 00:47:39.850
After the, the second number he
is looking over at me at, you

00:47:39.850 --> 00:47:43.000
know, on the sidelines, are you,
going, like, what's going on here?

00:47:43.000 --> 00:47:43.270
You know?

00:47:43.270 --> 00:47:45.550
And then finally everybody
started getting into it.

00:47:45.550 --> 00:47:50.230
But, uh, Vancouver was a toughest
audience on the continent and

00:47:50.230 --> 00:47:53.080
they, they appreciated the artists
as much as anybody else does.

00:47:53.380 --> 00:47:55.270
They're just looking at their
neighbors to see what they were

00:47:55.270 --> 00:47:56.590
doing before they applaud it.

00:47:56.590 --> 00:47:57.730
You know, that's the way it was.

00:47:57.850 --> 00:47:59.980
Jim Conrad: Don, any
other memorable concert?

00:48:00.040 --> 00:48:01.960
Don Shafer: Yeah, I was just
gonna go back to number three,

00:48:01.960 --> 00:48:05.980
which is, you know, probably a, a
mishmash of, you know, local bands.

00:48:06.040 --> 00:48:10.360
If you go back and you remember
we used to do live at, and I

00:48:10.360 --> 00:48:13.090
am, I think it was the Town Pump
that we were at most of the time.

00:48:13.420 --> 00:48:15.520
And, uh, that's where Bryan Adams started.

00:48:15.665 --> 00:48:19.174
And you know, you, you, when we, when
we think back, we did that every week.

00:48:19.174 --> 00:48:23.825
We had, you know, Barney Bentall,
we had Bryan Adams, we had every

00:48:24.275 --> 00:48:27.095
local band, you know, just play.

00:48:27.395 --> 00:48:30.275
And we had some great performances
and we had some shitty performances.

00:48:30.305 --> 00:48:33.665
But, you know, when you think about
it, we had a lot of great music

00:48:33.995 --> 00:48:35.765
internationally coming through the city.

00:48:35.765 --> 00:48:40.865
A lot of great Canadian superstars, but
we also had our own music scene that was,

00:48:40.865 --> 00:48:44.705
uh, that was vibrant and whether it was
the Commodore or the Town Pump, I mean,

00:48:44.705 --> 00:48:46.835
clubs were playing lots of local bands.

00:48:47.134 --> 00:48:48.424
And it was exciting to see.

00:48:48.634 --> 00:48:50.315
Dave Chesney: Can I just
quickly jump in there because

00:48:50.315 --> 00:48:51.455
there's a golden opportunity.

00:48:51.455 --> 00:48:52.000
Jim Conrad: Yes, yes.

00:48:52.000 --> 00:48:53.359
Dave Chesney: Live from Gators.

00:48:54.660 --> 00:48:55.620
Teenage Head.

00:49:01.830 --> 00:49:05.550
So I tell Frankie Venom the lead singer
because the station's not playing.

00:49:05.850 --> 00:49:06.150
Jim Conrad: That's right.

00:49:06.180 --> 00:49:07.260
Once again, Frankie Venom.

00:49:07.260 --> 00:49:07.830
Dave Chesney: Frankie Venom.

00:49:07.830 --> 00:49:08.970
Jim Conrad: Oh, I love those punk names.

00:49:09.330 --> 00:49:11.430
Dave Chesney: So I tell him, I said,
look, the station's not playing the

00:49:11.430 --> 00:49:14.400
record, but we got a live chance, a
shot to do a live broadcast, right?

00:49:14.550 --> 00:49:16.590
So, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah.

00:49:16.650 --> 00:49:18.180
And I said, so here's the information.

00:49:18.180 --> 00:49:20.090
You know, it's radio station CFOX.

00:49:20.690 --> 00:49:21.470
Okay, you got that?

00:49:21.470 --> 00:49:22.339
CFOX.

00:49:22.339 --> 00:49:22.600
Got that.

00:49:22.600 --> 00:49:22.950
Thank you.

00:49:22.950 --> 00:49:23.100
Yeah.

00:49:23.910 --> 00:49:24.890
Yeah, I guess that's fine.

00:49:24.890 --> 00:49:26.370
So, you know, what, you think I'm stupid.

00:49:27.570 --> 00:49:30.240
Some, one of the announcers, I'm
not sure who it might've been,

00:49:30.240 --> 00:49:33.630
Sterling Fox or somebody from CFOX,
was there to introduce the band.

00:49:34.440 --> 00:49:36.360
Ladies and gentlemen, live from Gators.

00:49:36.735 --> 00:49:37.995
Please welcome Teenage Head.

00:49:38.295 --> 00:49:41.895
Frankie Venom walks on stage and says,
well, good evening, ladies and gentlemen.

00:49:42.134 --> 00:49:43.935
Coming to you live on radio station.

00:49:43.935 --> 00:49:44.415
C

00:49:46.545 --> 00:49:47.075
FUCK.

00:49:47.150 --> 00:49:49.455
Don Shafer: Well, I was told
not to say the word fuck, so.

00:49:49.755 --> 00:49:51.015
Fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck.

00:49:52.005 --> 00:49:53.085
Dave Chesney: I forgot that part.

00:49:53.085 --> 00:49:58.104
But the next morning, 8:30, the
aforementioned Mr. Shafer calls me and

00:49:58.104 --> 00:50:05.174
says, Chesney, you and that son of a bitch
better be in my office in 15 minutes.

00:50:05.174 --> 00:50:08.565
So I get Frankie and we go down
and, uh, all that Frankie had to

00:50:08.565 --> 00:50:10.725
say for himself was, I'm crazy.

00:50:13.634 --> 00:50:15.375
Jim Conrad: That was a great
rationale for anything.

00:50:15.375 --> 00:50:16.845
Hey, we're crazy.

00:50:16.845 --> 00:50:17.384
We're crazy.

00:50:17.745 --> 00:50:21.075
That transitions me to, I
guess, you know, our topic.

00:50:21.315 --> 00:50:22.245
That was then.

00:50:22.650 --> 00:50:23.820
This is now.

00:50:24.180 --> 00:50:28.830
Uh, you guys have, were there then
and have been watching it, you

00:50:28.830 --> 00:50:32.880
know, the evolution of the music
business and bands and entertainment

00:50:33.300 --> 00:50:36.240
and radio over the last 30 years.

00:50:36.480 --> 00:50:38.070
How has it changed?

00:50:38.460 --> 00:50:41.850
Don Shafer: And I have mixed feelings
about it, as you might, expect.

00:50:42.150 --> 00:50:45.720
I, uh, you know, I, I loved
what we did in the sixties,

00:50:45.720 --> 00:50:47.700
seventies, some of the eighties.

00:50:47.880 --> 00:50:53.565
But I loved, I loved that experimentation
that, you know, Frank or Ches or anybody

00:50:53.565 --> 00:50:56.535
could walk in the station and say, this
is really good, play it, or trust me.

00:50:57.345 --> 00:50:59.505
And, we could, we could
actually put it on the radio.

00:50:59.625 --> 00:51:02.835
You know, the difference is, is that, you
know, we didn't know what, we didn't know.

00:51:02.835 --> 00:51:03.915
We didn't have a formula.

00:51:03.915 --> 00:51:06.675
We didn't have a, we weren't
really that sophisticated.

00:51:06.885 --> 00:51:11.955
So what we did was love and gut
and playlist sizes could have

00:51:11.955 --> 00:51:16.365
been 2000, but over time they went
from 2000 to, I think some of the

00:51:16.365 --> 00:51:17.895
playlists today are a hundred songs.

00:51:17.955 --> 00:51:18.135
Jim Conrad: Yeah.

00:51:18.225 --> 00:51:20.685
Don Shafer: I think unfortunately
corporate radio, you know, has

00:51:20.685 --> 00:51:22.395
sucked the soul out of the beast.

00:51:22.425 --> 00:51:25.785
And you know, I don't, and I don't
say that unkindly, I understand the

00:51:25.785 --> 00:51:27.615
business of it, but we lost the magic.

00:51:27.615 --> 00:51:28.575
We lost the soul.

00:51:28.785 --> 00:51:31.605
We lost the ability to Ches's
point, I don't even know whether

00:51:31.605 --> 00:51:32.895
there are record reps anymore.

00:51:33.075 --> 00:51:34.065
Frank Gigliotti: I
don't know if there are.

00:51:34.305 --> 00:51:38.745
Yeah, but radio, in the sixties,
seventies, I used to fly down to Los

00:51:38.745 --> 00:51:41.625
Angeles once a year to listen to radio.

00:51:42.405 --> 00:51:47.310
93KHJ Los Angeles, right?

00:51:47.370 --> 00:51:50.549
The Dr. Don Rose at KFRC San Francisco.

00:51:50.970 --> 00:51:54.149
They played the music, but
they were so good that you

00:51:54.149 --> 00:51:55.859
waited for the music to finish.

00:51:56.040 --> 00:51:59.460
'Cause you wanted to hear what
the jock had to say, you know?

00:51:59.939 --> 00:52:04.795
And, uh, you listened some to those old
air checks with Robert W. Morgan or The

00:52:04.795 --> 00:52:06.715
Real Don Steele or any of those, right?

00:52:06.715 --> 00:52:08.295
Jim Conrad: You sent me Coyote McCloud.

00:52:08.425 --> 00:52:11.215
And the classic China Grove

00:52:17.515 --> 00:52:18.505
intro.

00:52:18.505 --> 00:52:21.785
If

00:52:27.235 --> 00:52:27.355
that

00:52:36.795 --> 00:52:56.915
doesn't get you going with your cup of
coffee in the morning, nothing will.

00:52:57.154 --> 00:53:00.305
Now how has the, uh, in your
specific instance, how has

00:53:00.305 --> 00:53:02.675
the music business changed?

00:53:02.735 --> 00:53:03.845
Frank Gigliotti: There
is no music business.

00:53:03.935 --> 00:53:05.285
Jim Conrad: There is no
music business today.

00:53:05.285 --> 00:53:05.645
Frank Gigliotti: Per se.

00:53:05.645 --> 00:53:10.865
Not, not as we used to know it because
Steve Jobs, you know, destroyed the,

00:53:10.870 --> 00:53:12.095
Jim Conrad: The iPod
killed the radio star.

00:53:12.125 --> 00:53:15.725
Frank Gigliotti: The iPod killed
everything, you know, and the iTunes,

00:53:16.205 --> 00:53:19.715
that, uh, I was remember talking
to Dean Cameron, who's president of

00:53:19.715 --> 00:53:22.005
Capitol Records not too long ago.

00:53:22.375 --> 00:53:24.815
Well, I guess about maybe
seven, eight years ago.

00:53:24.815 --> 00:53:27.155
When you get to be my age
that wasn't too long ago.

00:53:28.985 --> 00:53:35.100
And, uh, he said, you know, Frankie,
he said, uh, we had 265 employees, uh,

00:53:35.100 --> 00:53:36.660
Jim Conrad: At Capital Records in Canada.

00:53:36.720 --> 00:53:38.460
Frank Gigliotti: During, you
know, the seventies, right.

00:53:38.550 --> 00:53:39.030
Eighties.

00:53:39.570 --> 00:53:43.560
He says, I'm down to 67
and I got a fire two today.

00:53:43.950 --> 00:53:44.940
Jim Conrad: And it's
just gonna keep on going.

00:53:45.000 --> 00:53:46.470
Frank Gigliotti: And it's
just gonna keep on going.

00:53:46.830 --> 00:53:49.290
Jim Conrad: Dave, music
is still vital though.

00:53:49.650 --> 00:53:50.460
Dave Chesney: Well, I would think so.

00:53:50.460 --> 00:53:53.430
But what I was thinking along
the lines, how has it changed?

00:53:53.490 --> 00:53:57.240
People don't have the attachment
to their music that we had.

00:53:57.330 --> 00:54:00.270
It doesn't define them,
it doesn't speak to them.

00:54:00.270 --> 00:54:01.140
Jim Conrad: It's disposable.

00:54:01.555 --> 00:54:05.155
Dave Chesney: Absolutely disposable,
and that's just the way it is.

00:54:05.215 --> 00:54:09.865
We were fortunate enough to have come
through a Renaissance period of music.

00:54:09.895 --> 00:54:11.725
It's never gonna be like that again.

00:54:11.905 --> 00:54:13.795
I'm not some old fart trying to,

00:54:14.725 --> 00:54:15.775
Jim Conrad: Well, you are some old fart.

00:54:15.775 --> 00:54:17.905
Dave Chesney: But yeah, I was
just happy that I was there.

00:54:17.965 --> 00:54:19.345
Jim Conrad: Grateful for the
experience of being there

00:54:19.345 --> 00:54:21.235
Dave Chesney: Yeah, I listened,
you know, I get turned on to music,

00:54:21.295 --> 00:54:24.415
you know, from friends and, and
sometimes through Spotify or whatever.

00:54:24.415 --> 00:54:28.525
But I think the thing was when you talk
about the, uh, Coyote McCloud air check,

00:54:28.555 --> 00:54:32.755
and as Frank talked about going to Los
Angeles just to listen to KHJ, you're

00:54:32.755 --> 00:54:35.935
in a restaurant, the waitress walks
over, drops your burger, and walks away.

00:54:35.935 --> 00:54:39.100
You go, I don't really feel very good
about this place, but if she walks up

00:54:39.100 --> 00:54:40.150
and goes, Hey, how you doing today?

00:54:40.150 --> 00:54:41.920
Well, I just saw you
pull up in that red car.

00:54:41.920 --> 00:54:42.279
Cool.

00:54:42.279 --> 00:54:42.880
Hey, how you doing?

00:54:43.180 --> 00:54:45.549
Hey, listen, we got meatloaf
sandwiches on sale today.

00:54:45.610 --> 00:54:46.150
Really good.

00:54:46.509 --> 00:54:47.500
Can I get you a coffee?

00:54:47.500 --> 00:54:48.940
You're like, yeah, I
kinda like this place.

00:54:49.099 --> 00:54:50.369
It's who serves it.

00:54:50.369 --> 00:54:53.290
And plus radio, they had the tunes.

00:54:53.379 --> 00:54:55.290
That's the only place you could get it.

00:54:55.410 --> 00:54:58.240
That was the only place, as I said
before, the only place you could

00:54:58.240 --> 00:55:01.609
get Bruce Springsteen in this
market was from Frank Gigliotti.

00:55:01.720 --> 00:55:04.089
If you wanted Michael Jackson,
you had to talk to me.

00:55:04.149 --> 00:55:07.990
When, Frank will remember these
days, of when CKLG and CFUN were

00:55:07.990 --> 00:55:11.980
competing against each other for
our listenership, one station would

00:55:11.980 --> 00:55:13.629
get a, a record before the other.

00:55:13.960 --> 00:55:16.690
And all through the whole record, so
the other station couldn't tape it.

00:55:16.690 --> 00:55:18.549
They'd go, LG exclusive.

00:55:19.475 --> 00:55:20.154
LG exclusive.

00:55:20.680 --> 00:55:22.210
You know, so yeah.

00:55:22.210 --> 00:55:25.930
And you and, and you, you couldn't wait
to get outta school to turn on the radio

00:55:25.930 --> 00:55:30.160
to hear the Daryl B show or whatever it
might be, or The Real Roy Hennessy with

00:55:30.160 --> 00:55:33.279
the carpool special, they had the tunes.

00:55:33.370 --> 00:55:37.990
And now I expect that I can pull up
to the Chevron pump and hit unleaded

00:55:37.990 --> 00:55:39.670
and I'll get the goddamn Weeknd song.

00:55:40.930 --> 00:55:42.189
Don Shafer: I just wanted
to add to that though.

00:55:42.560 --> 00:55:46.060
Because there's, there's a place where
this starts to sound like, you know,

00:55:46.635 --> 00:55:48.375
I remember when bread was nickel.

00:55:48.405 --> 00:55:52.285
And, and I used to walk, you know,
walk in the snow to, to school.

00:55:52.515 --> 00:55:56.325
And we have some great memories,
but not a lot has changed.

00:55:56.325 --> 00:55:59.175
I mean, I, to your point, I
still like going on iTunes.

00:55:59.355 --> 00:56:01.785
I still like exploring
and surfing for new music.

00:56:02.055 --> 00:56:04.005
So I, I find it one way or the other.

00:56:04.245 --> 00:56:07.515
But when you talked about radio and
what's changed, you know, for me the

00:56:07.515 --> 00:56:09.255
biggest thing that's changed is this.

00:56:09.345 --> 00:56:12.615
You don't find this very
much on most radio stations.

00:56:12.855 --> 00:56:16.785
It's too time sensitive, it's
too compressed, it's too business

00:56:16.785 --> 00:56:18.945
focused or too advertiser focused.

00:56:19.215 --> 00:56:21.885
So why are podcasts doing so well?

00:56:22.725 --> 00:56:24.795
Why is NPR doing so well?

00:56:24.945 --> 00:56:27.735
And why does CBC ratings
continue to skyrocket?

00:56:27.765 --> 00:56:31.365
Jim Conrad: Yeah, because back
to what my original premise, it's

00:56:31.365 --> 00:56:36.575
about the stories and those DJs
told us stories about that music.

00:56:37.145 --> 00:56:40.445
You know, the, the artists
were great storytellers.

00:56:40.475 --> 00:56:41.615
Dave Chesney: Well, they
were human beings too.

00:56:41.615 --> 00:56:45.995
And to, to Don's point, I mean, we
all remember the days of the BBM

00:56:45.995 --> 00:56:50.735
book coming out, and if it was a 15
station market, CBC was number 16.

00:56:50.945 --> 00:56:53.675
I remember hearing the story
about the CBC French transmitter

00:56:53.675 --> 00:56:55.145
in Kitimat falling over.

00:56:55.475 --> 00:56:56.975
It was down for nine months.

00:56:56.975 --> 00:56:57.545
Jim Conrad: And nobody noticed.

00:56:57.545 --> 00:56:59.195
Dave Chesney: Nobody noticed, nobody knew.

00:57:00.155 --> 00:57:04.295
But CBC done, and which you have
attempted to do with Roundhouse Radio

00:57:04.355 --> 00:57:06.185
is reflect my community back to me.

00:57:06.395 --> 00:57:06.935
Talk to me.

00:57:07.345 --> 00:57:10.445
You know, I, I, I don't need
an endless jukebox anymore.

00:57:10.694 --> 00:57:11.325
Jim Conrad: I've got that on my iPod.

00:57:11.345 --> 00:57:14.855
Dave Chesney: Radio stations that are
still out there relying on the hits?

00:57:14.915 --> 00:57:15.555
Forget it.

00:57:15.755 --> 00:57:16.595
Absolutely.

00:57:16.595 --> 00:57:20.285
If you, if all you've got to
offer is music, you're in big

00:57:20.285 --> 00:57:24.005
trouble as far as me and young,
especially the younger generations.

00:57:24.005 --> 00:57:24.634
Oh my God.

00:57:24.815 --> 00:57:25.955
Like, you know, and I,

00:57:25.955 --> 00:57:27.335
Jim Conrad: Well, that's why,
that's who's listening to podcasts.

00:57:27.605 --> 00:57:29.865
Dave Chesney: But there was a period
of time just up the street here when

00:57:29.865 --> 00:57:34.109
Tom Lavin of Powder Blues, not that
many years ago, opened up a how to be

00:57:34.109 --> 00:57:36.440
a success in the music business school.

00:57:36.600 --> 00:57:40.620
And taught me to teach, uh, some of
the business aspects of the class.

00:57:40.680 --> 00:57:51.830
And I would always love, there's a DVD,
it's the story of CKLW, the big eight,

00:57:52.629 --> 00:58:07.919
now all these hipster doofuses that
were so cool, I would put that thing

00:58:07.919 --> 00:58:10.890
on and they would sit there with their
mouths open and they just go like, oh

00:58:10.890 --> 00:58:13.890
my God, where, when did this happen?

00:58:14.069 --> 00:58:15.339
Is it gonna happen again?

00:58:16.269 --> 00:58:21.359
You know, and so as far as radios,
we could beat that one to death, but

00:58:21.359 --> 00:58:25.680
I still, I still think somewhere,
probably in America, just before they

00:58:25.680 --> 00:58:28.920
turn the, the lights out, they just
flip the keys to some of the kids

00:58:28.920 --> 00:58:32.160
from the college down the street and
they just go absolutely ape shit.

00:58:32.340 --> 00:58:36.180
And I, with a radio, I mean every,
everywhere you go you can find a radio.

00:58:36.360 --> 00:58:38.220
In your car, in your house, in the garage.

00:58:38.220 --> 00:58:39.470
They're still out there.

00:58:39.840 --> 00:58:42.390
I'm not waiting for it to come back,
but I think it could come back.

00:58:42.390 --> 00:58:46.230
But that immediacy and we've
seen now it's the locality.

00:58:46.260 --> 00:58:47.460
It's gotta be local.

00:58:47.520 --> 00:58:51.150
So we would want to turn on the radio
and see how hungover Daryl B was

00:58:51.150 --> 00:58:54.540
today, or where did he go last night?

00:58:54.540 --> 00:58:54.960
Jim Conrad: Yeah, that's right.

00:58:54.960 --> 00:58:56.370
Dave Chesney: You know,
he was out at the club.

00:58:56.370 --> 00:58:59.760
He went to the Cave Supper club and
saw I was partying with the trooper

00:58:59.760 --> 00:59:01.440
boys or whatever it might have been.

00:59:01.620 --> 00:59:04.920
He was reflecting our community back
to us and I think that's what the

00:59:04.920 --> 00:59:08.865
consultants, nevermind shrinking the
playlist, they took the community

00:59:08.865 --> 00:59:10.935
aspect, the relatability, you know.

00:59:10.935 --> 00:59:12.675
Jim Conrad: And homogenized the product.

00:59:12.765 --> 00:59:13.395
Dave Chesney: Exactly.

00:59:13.425 --> 00:59:15.735
And you know, there was a
time when everybody was out

00:59:15.735 --> 00:59:17.625
on the street and it was fun.

00:59:17.745 --> 00:59:19.425
And I don't think it's coming back, but.

00:59:20.025 --> 00:59:20.385
Jim Conrad: It may.

00:59:20.385 --> 00:59:20.895
Dave Chesney: It might.

00:59:20.955 --> 00:59:22.335
Jim Conrad: Frank, you got a story?

00:59:22.395 --> 00:59:25.875
Frank Gigliotti: I do have a story with
it actually, uh, relates to, to Shaf here.

00:59:25.935 --> 00:59:30.945
Um, one of the best lines I think I've
ever heard, when an artist used to come

00:59:30.945 --> 00:59:35.235
to town, we'd like to bring them down
to CFOX, uh, to do a live interview.

00:59:35.925 --> 00:59:39.595
At this particular point,
Muddy Waters was, uh, was

00:59:42.345 --> 00:59:47.145
in

00:59:49.325 --> 00:59:50.565
town.

00:59:51.035 --> 00:59:54.705
And, uh, I said, Hey, Shaf,
I says, uh, Muddy's in town.

00:59:54.705 --> 00:59:56.055
And he says, oh yeah, bring them by.

00:59:56.055 --> 00:59:57.525
I'd love to, love to have a chat with him.

00:59:57.645 --> 01:00:00.615
So we're talking about all kinds
of different things, you know.

01:00:00.930 --> 01:00:02.880
And then Shaf turns to Muddy.

01:00:03.090 --> 01:00:09.060
And he says, so tell me, he says, uh,
does it ever, you know, piss you off?

01:00:09.060 --> 01:00:12.780
Do you ever feel bad about
the fact that all those years,

01:00:13.020 --> 01:00:15.120
you know, you were starving?

01:00:15.630 --> 01:00:18.000
You know, you couldn't make
a buck out of anything.

01:00:18.030 --> 01:00:20.880
'Cause that's the way it was
playing the blues, right?

01:00:20.940 --> 01:00:24.630
He says, and all these new guys, you
know, Clapton and Beck, and these

01:00:24.630 --> 01:00:28.110
guys are stealing all your chops
and making a fortune out of it.

01:00:28.860 --> 01:00:30.000
Does it ever bother you?

01:00:30.480 --> 01:00:35.580
He says, well, you know, Don, if I had
the money, I wouldn't have had the blues.

01:00:37.950 --> 01:00:39.029
Jim Conrad: If I had the money.

01:00:39.629 --> 01:00:42.480
Frank Gigliotti: So Shaf looks
at me and he just, he says, wow.

01:00:42.509 --> 01:00:44.220
He says, what else am I gonna ask him?

01:00:44.399 --> 01:00:45.419
You know, it was, uh,

01:00:45.419 --> 01:00:46.169
Jim Conrad: That's a t-shirt.

01:00:46.529 --> 01:00:47.160
That's a t-shirt.

01:00:47.160 --> 01:00:47.459
I love that.

01:00:47.459 --> 01:00:47.520
Frank Gigliotti: Yeah.

01:00:47.524 --> 01:00:48.059
Pretty, pretty much.

01:00:48.540 --> 01:00:52.410
Another quick story, uh, when, when
Willie lost, uh, he was down, was

01:00:52.410 --> 01:00:56.640
it 13 million, Ches, and the tax
thing, you know, I was talking to

01:00:56.640 --> 01:00:57.149
Jim Conrad: Willie Nelson.

01:00:57.350 --> 01:00:58.259
Frank Gigliotti: Yeah, Willie Nelson.

01:00:58.290 --> 01:01:03.390
I was talking to Paul Rappaport, who
was the LA promotion manager, and I

01:01:03.390 --> 01:01:04.919
says, Hey, you heard about Willie?

01:01:04.919 --> 01:01:06.209
Like, what's going on with Willie?

01:01:06.750 --> 01:01:10.770
And he said, well, I was talking to
Kris Kristofferson the other day, and

01:01:10.770 --> 01:01:12.569
uh, and he said, did he talk to Willie?

01:01:12.569 --> 01:01:16.290
He said, yeah, well, well, he
says, so Kris, what happened?

01:01:16.290 --> 01:01:20.459
He says, well, I said, Willie, you know
you're $13 million in the hole 'cause

01:01:20.459 --> 01:01:22.350
you get ripped off by your accountant.

01:01:22.350 --> 01:01:23.220
What are you gonna do?

01:01:24.029 --> 01:01:28.155
And Willie says, I guess it would
bother somebody that gave a fuck.

01:01:31.605 --> 01:01:32.775
Jim Conrad: Now that's a good attitude.

01:01:32.780 --> 01:01:33.090
I like that.

01:01:33.090 --> 01:01:34.095
Frank Gigliotti: Yeah, I love that.

01:01:34.995 --> 01:01:37.305
Dave Chesney: I'm gonna jump off the back
of that Willie thing because we're gonna,

01:01:37.455 --> 01:01:40.485
I know we're, we're wrapping up, and this
isn't even my story, but I, it's one of

01:01:40.485 --> 01:01:42.225
my favorites stories that I just heard.

01:01:42.255 --> 01:01:43.125
Jim Conrad: This is about storytelling.

01:01:43.125 --> 01:01:44.705
Dave Chesney: So we all in
this room know Jim Burns?

01:01:45.045 --> 01:01:47.775
Great, uh, local blues
man, uh, from St. Louis.

01:01:47.805 --> 01:01:50.925
So, uh, the little town I live
outside of here, White Rock, uh,

01:01:50.955 --> 01:01:54.855
Blue Frog Studios has an artist,
uh, perform on a regular basis.

01:01:54.855 --> 01:01:59.415
One being Jim Burns, uh, a fan favorite,
and he told a great Willie story that,

01:01:59.475 --> 01:02:03.985
uh, Jim Burns had met Ray Charles,
uh, when Ray used to come and do the

01:02:03.985 --> 01:02:08.225
telethon here, he was always the big
superstar, close out Sunday afternoon.

01:02:08.275 --> 01:02:12.025
So backstage, Jim tells a story that
the first time he was, uh, in the

01:02:12.025 --> 01:02:15.445
same room as Ray Charles, he felt
compelled to tell him that his next

01:02:15.445 --> 01:02:19.255
door neighbor in St. Louis actually
gave Ray his first recording contract.

01:02:19.255 --> 01:02:23.415
So there was immediate click between
Ray and Jim Burns and over the years

01:02:23.415 --> 01:02:28.135
they became quite good friends and,
uh, so when, uh, Ray passed, he

01:02:28.135 --> 01:02:30.025
was, uh, invited to the funeral.

01:02:30.175 --> 01:02:35.215
So he goes, and of course, a star cast of
people to get up to say a few words and

01:02:35.610 --> 01:02:39.270
Jim says, I'm sitting there and Willie
Nelson gets up and he says, you know,

01:02:39.720 --> 01:02:44.250
all of us here, you know, are gonna miss,
uh, Ray, a great friend of, of all of us.

01:02:44.250 --> 01:02:47.520
And, uh, everybody here in this
room knows that Ray was very

01:02:47.520 --> 01:02:49.140
passionate about playing chess.

01:02:49.290 --> 01:02:52.320
And he said, we've all probably
had to play a game of chess

01:02:52.320 --> 01:02:54.030
with Ray at some point in time.

01:02:54.690 --> 01:02:58.320
And, uh, he had a special kind of chess
board that, I don't know whether it made

01:02:58.320 --> 01:03:00.180
some type of audible noise, I'm not sure.

01:03:00.720 --> 01:03:05.100
That doesn't matter with the story, but,
so Willie says, so the last time I saw

01:03:05.100 --> 01:03:10.200
Ray, he said he of course roped me into
a game of chess and he kicked my ass.

01:03:10.650 --> 01:03:15.045
So I looked at him, I said, Ray, next
time we play, can we leave the lights on?

01:03:20.535 --> 01:03:21.064
Jim Conrad: Frank.

01:03:21.555 --> 01:03:22.055
Dave.

01:03:22.055 --> 01:03:24.975
Don, thank you so much for
being part of my podcast.

01:03:24.975 --> 01:03:25.275
Thank you.

01:03:25.275 --> 01:03:28.065
The stories are fabulous, so
thank you very much for coming.

01:03:28.215 --> 01:03:28.815
Frank Gigliotti: Thank you, Jim.

01:03:28.815 --> 01:03:29.065
Dave Chesney: Thanks, Jim.

01:03:29.065 --> 01:03:29.310
Don Shafer: Thanks, Jim.

01:03:39.055 --> 01:03:40.475
Jim Conrad: That was episode 7.

01:03:40.495 --> 01:03:46.505
What a wonderful journey with my very
special guests, Mark Holden, Don Shafer,

01:03:46.795 --> 01:03:48.715
Frank Gigliotti, and Dave Chesney.

01:03:49.495 --> 01:03:53.545
As well, we talked about the neuroscience
and the evolutionary roots of music

01:03:53.905 --> 01:03:59.905
in a wonderful essay by Dr. Aditi
Subramanian about the neuroscience

01:04:00.055 --> 01:04:03.535
of music and why it matters to us.

01:04:04.285 --> 01:04:05.155
Thanks for listening.

01:04:05.575 --> 01:04:07.915
As always, it has been a pleasure.

01:04:08.695 --> 01:04:12.715
Oh, and remember, we are
all stories to be told.

01:04:13.615 --> 01:04:24.695
I'm Jim Conrad, and this has been
Conovision, the spirit of storytelling.